the shock trend

[yawnmoth]

shock isn't even half as abusive as lightning bolt when it comes to game play. in keeping with this tradition, would a ancestrall recall that only lets you draw 2 cards for 1 blue be as abusive? or what about a dark ritual that only adds 2 black mana? would these adversly affect the game play?

btw: this is a repost from usenet.

[Edited by yawnmoth on 11-12-00 at 02:05 AM]

 

[Apollo]

I think the Dark Ritual version is fine, and maybe even rather weak. The Ancestrall version, though, would still be too good (compare to Inspiration). Not as good as the original, but still broken.

 

[DÛke]

These "cycles" can't be compared. Drawing cards costs more than dealing damage, which should cost more than adding mana to one's mana pool, and so on.

A 2 mana Dark Ritual is fine. However, it should take a player 4 mana to draw 2 cards. This is a "rule" of Magic, should it be broken, such card must have a drawback. A 1 casting cost card that lets you draw 2 cards should have a severe draw back; as severe as "...and discard 3 cards".

The mana cost of cards of different colors can't be compared. Each color has its own speed; therefore, it's owner power, and weakness.

 

[arhar]

Agreed. No one would play "Not-so-Dark ritual", but Whispers of the Muse, which was draw ONE card for one mana (could be bought back, though) was played. And if they ever print the "Parental Recall", which lets draw 2 for 1, it would be broken almost as much as the original.

 

[Ura]

I agree that a 1 for 2 card drawing spell would be really powerful, broken though? Not in the current T2 environment, it would be a nightmare everywhere else though. Where is it written that drawing a card should cost 2 or have a heavy drawback? Opt costs 1 and lets you draw one and even is nice enough to give you a bit of a choice in the matter, which is why I like it so much.

A 2 for 1 not-as-dark ritual would be good, but not all that useful. Alot of black's best cards have been made to the ritual curve or 3 or 5 CC. There are some that deviate from that curve of course (yawgmoth's bargain), but most hold to it.

 

[Neil Rigby]

I would never call Lightning Bolt 'abusive', it may be 'strong' but 3 damage compared to 3 drawn cards is not really a fair comparison. It would seem that Wizards have realised which effects are powerful and which are not 'as' powerful, which is why Ancestral Recall never made it past unlimited, Bolt never made it to Fifth, and Dark Ritual is now only just being phased out in the likes of extended and type 2 (only if the next stand alone set also doesn't have it in).
Perhaps Shady Ritual B:add BB to your pool will replace Dark Ritual but it wouldn't get played with anywhere near as much. Unlike shock which gets played widely in T2 because it still kills small monsters, and so does much of the job Bolt used to do.

 

[theorgg]

I have a question: When 'bolt was the only thing out there like it(when I started, and about a year after IA when people hadn't noticed that Incenerate was still good) does anyone remember bolting a 3-toughness critter?

all I remember is bolting a hill giant(which was saved by Healing Salve)

For what I can remember, I would have been just as well served with a shock...
Oh yea--and when people realized how good dragon whelp was. then I bolted two of those...

Three things in two-and-a-half years that one damage really made a difference on.

Hmmm..

 

[Hetemti]

We need bolt!

Look at the many "bomb" critters brought to us by the recent sets...

Mageta
Jorael
LinSivvi (Even if she could replicate herself...)
Avatar of Woe
Random Hill Giant about to be equiped with an Armadillo Cloak...

You need two shocks (three with AOW) to kill these guys, with a bolt (or at least Incenerate) you need one less. Comming up with two shocks is hard enough, more less needing two more when they cast another one the next turn.

Sure, some may say Bolt's unfair...so is Mageta.

 

[Volradon]

Well, they did reprint a fixed ancestral recal. Its that invasion card which costs 1U and u draw cards = to # of those cards in graveyard +1.

 

[Dune Echo]

Why the heck is it that only one person considers Shock a balanced card and Lightning Bolt abusive? In the current environment, if Lightning Bolt or Chain Lightning replaced Shock and Seal of Fire did not exist, it would be a very different environment, very reminiscent of the old Revised/Legends/The Dark/Fallen Empires days I started in. Red would finally have a way to deal with white and blue again (remember how much of a pain Morphling is?).

Let me get on my soapbox here...

Why is it that because Deadguy Red became the perfect deck for casual and scrubs because it was affordable, Lightning Bolt is now considered abusive? There is nothing wrong with it! NOT A DANG THING!

When I first saw Shock, I was like WTF? Why is this being printed? But now we have to deal with crappy red burn, and I don't see why. Yes, red sligh is going back to it's control roots which is a good thing, but there are certain key cards that need to be brought back so red can stand on it's own again. I personally think that if Lightning Bolt came back, it'd be a better environment. All I'm asking for is one decent burn spell, four cards in a single 60 card deck. How can that be abusive?

P.S. I'd really like to see Death Spark reprinted. That's a decent spell too.

 

[Volradon]

Dune Echo: the reason morphling is hard to deal with is not the 3 toughness but because it can be puped and is untargetable (or can be made so )

 

[Apollo]

I completely agree with Dune Echo. Lightning Bolt was not that abusive. It was just a good card. Shock is a weaker substitute, and an uneccesary one.

BTW, DUke, I like your new sig. Funny.

 

[Griffion2000]

Let me show you how to tell if a card is broken or not.
Do do this, we must add the resorece a card uses compared to the effect.

Common Resoreces:
a card - 1
colored mana - 2
colorless mana - 1
Common Effects:
1 damage - 1
draw a card - 2
colored mana - 1

So, Dark ritual takes 3 resorces, and gives out 3 effects - it's balanced.
Lightning Bolt takes 3 resorces, and gives out 3 effects - it too is balanced.
Ancestrial Recall takes 3 resorces, and gives out 6 - broken!

Get it, got it, good.

 

[yawnmoth]

Imagine,

New Dark Ritual
B
Add one B to your mana pool.
"This might be to mana efficient."
-Volrath the Worried

New Ancestral Recall
U
Draw one card
Cycling 3
"Can we say brooken?"
-Squee

 

[Spiderman]

I have to agree with the sentiment that Bolt was really not that bad. I can't remember what reasons were given for giving it the boot...

Dark Ritual and Ancestral Recall though, break the rules of Magic of 1 card per turn and 1 mana per turn. I'm guessing everyone agrees that A. Recall was broken; D.R. also on a lesser scale.

And pretty much in every color you start getting good stuff at 3cc. It's not just black.

 

[Zadok001]

Griffion2000:

I always have to question rating systems like that... The problem with them is clear; they cannot accurately gauge the value of a card under given circumstances. Lightning Bolt and Ritual are balanced, you say. Yet, if either one was placed into the Extended environment right now, it would dominate. That's not very 'balanced.' We already have Dark Ritual in Type 2, but imagine what would happen if the 'balanced' Bolt was suddenly legal. BOOM! Suddenly the much-maligned Red takes over tourneys. Obviously, that's not very balanced at all.

See, the thing is, a card is only as balanced as the environment you put it in. Rating cards on 'merits,' or their attributes of sorts is irrelevant to how abusive a card is. The environment, not the cards, define broken.

To bring an old analogy to the table: We all know Tolarian Academy is abusive, right? What if, instead of being a Saga land, it was legal in a Homelands only tournament? Isn't very abusive anymore, is it now? So, if it was Homelands, it wouldn't have been banned, because, to put it simply, it would SUCK. Saga, broken. Homelands, balanced.

Environment is everything. Given the right environment, Ancestral Recall would not only be a balanced card, it would probably go unplayed.

 

[Dune Echo]

Volradon: Yes, you're right, but I also think that if the red mage could possibly deal with it by tapping 1 mountain, it would be less of a problem. Instead, you have to use two Shock/Seal of Fire or the ACC spell from MM that you have to sacrifice a mountain for. I'm just saying that there was nothing wrong with Lightning Bolt and that it is seriously time to bring it back. I'm tired of the sub-standard replacements for a very balanced card. There is nothing wrong with it.

Honestly, I feel that Magic is finally going back to it's roots. They have done really well. I just think that red needs to get its best burn back.

 

[yawnmoth]

I agree with what Zadok001 said, but why do they do stuff whose repracussions will not only help the one environment it was intended to help, but hurt all the other environments? I can only hope that the foil Lightning Bolts are the first step to tournie legal ones agian.
Also, does the fact that Invasion has no Dark Rituals mean that they aren't going to reprint anymore? I really hope not. In Standard, right now, Dark Ritual is almost essential if you want to play black, though if it were legal in extended, it would seriously make the field dominated by black.

Back to the Lightning Bolt thing - what if a new one was printed that did 3 damage to target creature -or- two damage to target player? It would be able to deal with the more powerful creatures in type 2, and wouldn't really hurt the player any more than a simple shock would...

 

[Zero]

Well, now ost creatures have been designed around the 2 damage point. Cards have actually been planned for, and a card that has a /3 toughness is alot better than a /2 toughness. Bolt;Reprinted would throw all their plans out of whack and red would dominate the tournement scene. How about

Bolt of Dawn! R
Instant
Deals 2 damage to target creature or 3 to target player.

Still, bit to good...

Reflection of Bolt of Dawn! R
Isntant
Deals 2 damage to target creature, or 2 damage to target player.

"Oh, wait..."

 

[Nyx]

I have a question: When 'bolt was the only thing out there like it(when I started, and about a year after IA when people hadn't noticed that Incenerate was still good) does anyone remember bolting a 3-toughness critter?

I didn't use red much, but I remember that people used to carry bolts specifically to stop all the Juggernaughts (4 to cast: 5/3 may not be blocked by walls must attack each turn if able), especially the invisible ones (invisibility, U: enchant creature, enchanted creature may be blocked only by walls).

Personally, I think the bolt got axed because of overkill. When I read stories of the "Black Summer" where suicide black decks dominated tournament play, it reminded me of playing back when Legends was new. Heck even a bit before then, burn was not about getting the cards, Wheel of Fortune and Howling Mine handled that easily, it was about getting the mana. Lightning Bolts were the key to efficient damage. Channel was restricted, but nearly all burn decks had their one. They were also packing (in my area at the very least) 4 forks ('till it got restricted, then banned, then restricted again). But everyone packed 4 bolts and 4 chain lightning plus a smattering of the x-spells. I saw a pair of red decks turn a single chain lightning into 27 points of damage for just 9 red. If that was printed "Chain Lightning, RRRRR: Your opponent takes 15 damage and you take 12" I don't think anyone would call it a reasonable spell. The difference between a Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning is only the number of cards required, the efficiency of damage to mana is the same and that was the key issue at the time. I think R&D over reacted when they pulled the bolt, but they did fix a number of truly broken cards at the same time. A/B/U/R had a lot of problems; bolt may not have been one of them, but if turning it into Shock was the price of fixing red, I think it was pretty affordable.

-----

Written next morning:

'Course there really weren't too many other options at the time. Take the situation right before Legends came out: Fireball, Disintegrate, Lightning Bolt, Earthquake, Orcish Artillery. That's Red's burn, all of it. Lightning Bolt is clearly the most efficient of the lot.

Compare it to the other options: With artifacts you had the Rod of Ruin (4 mana for 1 damage). Period. Then Arabian added Aladdin's Ring (8 for 4) and Antiquities brought the ever popular rocket launcher (2 for 1). Stepping out of Red you've got Drain life (1 for 1 and gain life) and Cuombajj Witches (tap: you and opponent each deal 1 damage) in black; Volcanic Eruption (1 for 1), Psychic Blast (3 mana for 4 damage plus you take 2 yourself), Prodigal Sorcerer (3 for 1 damage reusable), and Pirate Ship (5 for 1 damage reuseable) in blue; Hurricane is the only green DD at 1:1.

Lightning bolt outclassed nearly every other style of direct damage of its day. Drain life came close purely because of the gain life added on. In terms of killing though, the bolt was tops. Everything close to as efficient had drawbacks, and most stuff as powerful (3 damage) was either way more expensive, or also had a drawback, like psionic blast. I still don't think it was broken, I just think it was one of the top cards.

Also, a few other things people used to kill with bolts regularly which shock wouldn't have been able to deal with had it been around: Rukh Eggs (our own), Mammoths, Pirate Ships, grounded Primal Clay's and Sengir Vampires (after it blocked something or was blocked and expected to grow). Now I'll admit that the mammoths and primal clay's may have been unique to my experiences because not to many other people played with them, but I had it happen to me a bunch.

[Edited by Nyx on 11-14-00 at 12:14 PM]