Zvi's Type 1... and Chronicles II... and new cards

[Dune Echo]

Yeah, I know everyone wants those Moxes and Lotus reprinted but how do we please everyone with and without Moxes? I'm thinking that maybe Wizards can't support Type 1 without pissing off a lot of people. What's our stand on this? Ferret's a true old-timer, I know for sure, and I've been around since FE. So what does everyone think? They say they won't reprint a bunch of old cards. People aren't happy with 6th's card pool. So what's the happy medium for creating a new card pool with cards people want to buy as well as bringing back cards that aren't readily availible for a REASONABLE price that supports Type 1? (NO, I don't want to see foil Black Lotuses or any of that bull.) Personally, I'd love to see the Moxes because they have neat artwork and cool names, of course, but I'd also love to see Raging River. I'd also like to see a set with the INTERESTING (read: NOT OVERPOWERING) cards from Fallen Empires, Ice Age, Homelands, and Alliances.

So, what's our stance on this Type 1 thing? And does anyone want to see a Chronicles II?

And one final note: I want to know if anyone wants to start a crusade here to force WotC to start accepting outside ideas for cards. Obviously R&D is becoming stagnant. I feel they could use more help than the one card a year from the pros. What's your thoughts, guys? Could we start a R&d of our own and then submit our results to WotC?

 

[Zadok001]

Why not make the "support type 1" and "Chronicles II" one and the same? We don't really have to bring back all of the Power 9, MAYBE the Moxen, but we could certainly bring back cool cards from way back when.

The problem is that all the Moxen and several other cards I'd like to see reprinted are currently on the reserved list, which means WotC will never reprint them :-(

As for the R&D thing, methink we'd have to get Maro, the current R&D team, and several other people hit by a bus before we'd be allowed to do that. Not that I wouldn't want to though.

--Zadok001, aka Greater Good fanatic

 

[Ferret]

I'd love to bombard R&D w/ card ideas, but the only time a year they let an actual player design a card is after the DCI Invitational and the winner gets to design one card. that's it...

...of course when our site starts getting millions and millions of hits a day and our organization grows to twice the size of the DCI, they'll come crawling to us...oh yes, it could happen...

-ferret

"...you may stand, Mr Rosewater. Did you bring the tribute we asked for..."

"...yes, Mr Ferret, one foil Lightning Bolt..."

 

[Zadok001]

LOL@Ferret's quote...

Actually, R&D seems to regularly scan the new card ideas being posted on the Web. They definately took several card ideas for Mirage and Visions, including but not limited to City of Solitude, Mortal Wound, and Tidal Wave. They changed the names in places (not for Tidal Wave), but the cards are either identical or very, very similar. The first version of the City I saw read "All spells and abilities are now played as sorceries." The card was called City of Silence. Hmmm...

My point is, while R&D rarely accepts cards sent to them, they do take random floaters on the net under their wing...

--Zadok001, aka Greater Good fanatic

 

[Dune Echo]

I think that only the Moxes should be reprinted, IF AND ONLY IF Zvi's Type I gets put into effect. If we are the CPA, we need to gather the information on how people feel about this and report it to WotC. This way poor guys like me and others can afford to compete on a better level with the richer players. Of course, this is all mute since we are the CASUAL PLAYERS ALLIANCE.

Do we want to see a Chronicles II and Moxes reprinted (if and only if Zvi's Type I is accepted)? Should we crusade for this?

Do we start posting "fantasy" cards on our site hoping R&D sees them and uses them? I've got some great ideas and so does everyone else. Maybe we can get stuff picked up by posting and becoming a major website!

-Dune Echo

"Yes, Ferret, I have your personalized Avatar foils right here, the Ferret God card They're selling for more than a Lotus now."--R. Garfield, Ferret's personal secretary.

 

[Dune Echo]

Also, I meant by our own personal R&D as in people send in cards to us. We playtest them and then post the best. R&D might then pull the best from there. We've got such a large group that cards could be well playtested and our people are rather bright if I don't say so myself. Is anyone interested.

 

[nekrataal]

Uh, oh you guys got my rantin' blood all worked up...

I would like to see the Moxen and such reprinted as legal cards for Type I simply because it would allow all players access to them. Type I doesn't have to be a rich mans game, but to be competitive you have to have some of those $100+ cards.

I imagine a bit down the road when Wizards is truly running out of quality ideas they will reprint all sets just to mooch more money. Doing so would affect the secondary market, but probably not that much. People will still want the older, black bordered cards more then the mass printed junk. If the new Moxen were to have a certain symbol that easily distinguishes them from the genuine, prices will remain pretty steady for the old stuff.

Also, why does Zvi's environment unrestrict Moxen? That seems more like a combo-monger idea than any I've heard before. He deals with the other stuff, but still I think Moxen should always be restricted! I agree that he bans a lot of the really ugly combo cards like Academy and Jar, but unrestricting Moxen is like just asking for a combo beating. I would also like to see Sharazaad unbanned, but only allowed in tournaments which have not time limits set. That card is way to cool to be kept out of tournaments.

In my opinion Type I should totally ban all of that evil combo stuff like Bargain, Academy, Jar, Spiral, and Twister (whaa, you can't ban P9, well too bad!). If you get rid of that nasty stuff, I'm sure you'll come into a more sane environment. Of course Necro would be the new super power, but then we can just ban Necro along with all that stuff. Or maybe just restrict it. You would then have to keep Moxen, Lotus, Sol Ring, Crypt, etc.. restricted. Then unrestrict all that harmless stuff like Black Vise, Underworld Dreams, and Ivory tower. Type I is such a mess no wonder Wizards won't touch it.

I also would love to see a T2 legal Chronicles II roll out sometime. There was so much cool stuff in Fallen Empires that wasn't broken, but was extremely fun to play it isn't funnt. I wanna play my Ebon Praetor deck in Type II damnit! And where are those Saprolings when you need them! Oh, is Wizards afraid of ruining Fallen Empires value on the secondary market? Well, they already did a few years back and when you can buy boxes of FE for $15 I don't think it can get much worse.

I think Wizards needs to start accepting some ideas from the commoners like ourselves. There are a lot of cards I'd like to see come about. I'm really looking for some better discard/creature removal for black! Where is the good stuff, where...

Just my $.02, acutally more like $2.00.

"I probably wandered a bit off topic, but I've been known for my bad sense of direction..."

 

[Dune Echo]

Actually, that is on topic, Nekrataal. If we're going to try to voice the opinion of the common folk (a.k.a. the Casual Players), then we need to find out what they want. I'd like to see Ebon Praetor as well. This was a perfectly balanced creature and would encourage the use of bigger creatures and the use of the Thrulls again. Also, it would allow a lot of us older players to play with our old cards again that weren't "ba-roken!" This game is about fun! Not about what the "playas" feel are good in tournaments.

So, Ferret, want to start a Chronicles II (ONLY) thread again here? I think it's a good idea...

Also, I'd love to play Type 1, but I can't compete with all the people with money. I don't have a lot of Legends, or The Dark, or any Beta/Unlimited. I really don't have that many rares since I collect them. If they accept Zvi's idea, they need to reprint the Moxes.

Nekrataal, the reasoning behind unrestricting the Moxes is that there are tons easy to cast artifacts now that make the Moxes not nearly as unique and powerful. I mean, look at Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, and Sol Ring. Combo with Voltaic Key. Yeah, there will be combo decks, but everything will benefit from the speed of the Moxes. Cursed Scroll is great with Moxes (yes, Ferret, we all know you hate this card)! Think of red/green Stompy decks. All SPEED! And there's always SRB to beat the combo decks.

 

[Zadok001]

I'd be more than happy to both submit and playtest.

I also agree with the idea of reprinting the Moxen, but once again, we are up against the reserved list here. That list has never been violated.... Oh, and lets try to make sure they don't give us foils in the new Chronicles. I hate the idea of foil Power 9.

--Zadok001, aka Greater Good fanatic

 

[TomB]

Nekrataal, I think you're right on track with what you said about WotC and the future with Moxes, et al., except for the part about the older cards retaining full value. Ask anyone who's been in the game a while about their Legend Spirit Link's, or their Killer Bees and Carrion Ants, and you'll find that the value of these sank through the floor with the release of 4th Ed. With the release of Chronicles, Arabian City of Brass and Erhnam Djinn took a hit, though they are now recovering, but tied into that are the prices the Chronicles versions are now commanding.

I always felt ripped off by WotC because Magic had an "Unlimited" set (which I missed) which was LIMITED!

 

[TomB]

Now for the second half of my reply...

...As far as I'm concerned, Unlimited means without limit. To me, that means we'll keep printing 'em as long as you guys keep buying 'em!

Because of that, I thought the Reserved list should never have been issued. Since it has, Wotc could get around it by putting functionally identicle cards with different names into a new expansion, or a Chronicles II (or both!), and this way can give newer players access to the older cards without affecting the secondary market. Then continue to keep the Moxen restricted, so the rich kids won't have access to eight, and we can still preserve Zvi's vision, if we want.

Why would we want to preserve his vision is a good question, however, since it basically gives up on the idea of a functional Type 1 theme. It will still come down to whoever wins the coin toss 80% of the time, and the rest of the time it will be decided by bad draws. He may have made some allowances for combo decks, but who's to say what the effect will be each time a new expansion comes out? Will we have to deal with this question over and over?

And Zadok001, I don't really mind the foils, since I can trade them for anywhere from a 2-1 advantage to a 5-1 advantage, or more. I like trading foil commons for non-foil rares.

TomB
CPA Member
"I really wish this BB had the edit feature..."

 

[nekrataal]

tomb:

Yeah, I might have exaggerated a bit on the original card prices after possible reprints, but I still believe these cards would hold value, probably up to %75 on original Moxen/Lotus.

People with money often want the original or black bordered version of a card. This is exactly on track with me. I have had the opportunity to buy an Unlimited Mox Jet for my Pox deck, but never have simply because I'm holding out for a Beta version so my deck can be totally BB.

Call me crazy, but a lot of players/collectors have these little quirks that control their wallet.

Anyway, I think that moxen reprints could help the secondary market if foils were introduced. The original Moxen might not be worth as much anymore, but collectors now have foil versions to sell and buy which would hopefully make up for the lost value. Look at how much more foil versions of cards are going for compared to the non-foiled.

-nekrataal

"Yeah! I just one a $30 tourney with my $30,000 Type I foil deck..."

 

[Zadok001]

Agreed. I really see no problem with reprinting the Moxen. The problem becomes this: I don't want them in Type 2! Therefore, if they are reprinted in Chronicles II, we would be forced to make them Type 1 legal, but not Type 2.

That's a challenge. We can't make it white bordered, that's theoretically legal in any type. It can't be black, it's not an expansion. It can't be silver, that's illegal in every type. And it can't be gold, that's for the World Champion Decks.

Next problem: We don't have any other Type 1 new cards we want reprinted, only the Moxen. And we can't print only Moxen in a set, that would be... Uh... Stupid? And we can't put them in Chronicles II, that would be really strange.

What does that leave us?

--Zadok001, aka Greater Good fanatic

 

[nekrataal]

I totally agree Moxen should see no light in Type II again. Maybe we could have a special Type I players set that would include the reprinted P9 and other great oldies like Juzam, Diamond Valley, Library, etc... It would be strange reprinting the classics, but if you had foils and such it might not hurt the market too bad. I have no idea what color border they would be... Maybe a dark gray apposed to silver and black?

-nekrataal
"I like the idea of owning mint p9..."

 

[Waubers]

I don't think that any of the old power cards should see light again. Here's why:

1. It will kill the value of the old cards. Like it or not the value of the old power stuff would slip because those cards values are based on supply & demand. If new cards are printed then there will be a big suppy hense lowering the value probably a large amount. If there are alot of a card the card isn't special (like the p9 are now)

2. There is a reason that those cards were not reprinted. They were simply too powerful. I don't care what format I'm playing in I do not want to ever consistantly be facing first turn moxen and loti. I hate it when people played lotus petal which was about as close as you could get to a mox without actually having a mox, and I'm glad its banned. If these cards are reprinted it would speed up the environment so much it would turn a lot of players away from the game (myself included).

3. The common player wouldn't get the cards.
When a set comes out who always has the cards that you're looking for? That one guy who buys 4 cases for every new set, not the average collector who buys 10 packs or even a box of every new set! The big collectors will then turn around and peddal those cards for really expensive cards. The common person will rarely ever see one of the really rare power cards.

I think a reprint of any of the power 9 would be tragic, but reprinting some of the old stuff that kicked but like dual lands, diamond valley, & some of the other good stuff wouldn't be a bad idea. I personnaly wouldn't mind a bb version of 6th edition, even if it was a limmited run.

Waubers

"If you want to play with the Power 9 use apprentice"

 

[TomB]

Waubers,
I think you are right that a re-issuing of the P9 would result in their losing some of their resale value, but the more I think about it the more I wonder if it really matters. Not all that many people are currently interested in playing Type 1 anyway. I know I almost always have trouble finding a game.

Nekrataal,
You've got a point. Maybe this is the only thing that could save Type 1 as a format. People will still go out of their way to try and acquire BB versions of the cards, and if more people are playing the format maybe the demand for the old cards will actually go up.

Maybe they could do it like the Star Wars sealed decks, where they sell a set of the P9 in a specialized form (like with teal borders, or something) for a set price (like $100.00 or so). This would give the newer cards some value too, which should help offset the value drop on the old ones.

But as we stated earlier, WotC can't do it anyway, even if they wanted to, because of the reserved list. That's why I suggested putting different names, and different art on the new issues.

The fact that they'd need to spend 2 years in Type 2 is probably something we won't be able to get around, but if the CC's in MM are anything like what we've seen in Urza's cycle we may need fast artifact mana just to keep the game interesting.

TomB
CPA Member
"I do not teach. I simply reveal."
-Daudi, Femeref tutor

 

[Ferret]

I've been kind of keeping quiet on this one, because I'm conflicted. I love the Power Nine - I have two of them, but I got them both by luck alone. Those cards might have been nifty and neat back in the days when there were a total of 500 or so cards in the game, but there's thousands of cards out there - far too many of them could be degenerated by these hyper-fast abusive cards...Type I shouldn't be supported in Pro Tour play. Period...

...BUT, correct me if I'm wrong, but what do we care about the Pro Tour and the impact of old cards had one them? We're casual players - we build decks from every card we own. We throw in cards that Pro's use to line their hamster cages with. I didn't know that we were supposed to have any "types" in our play sessions...

...more to come, but I'm going to start new threads w/ these...

-ferret

"...Oooboy! Blood's boiling! I am in the ranting mood!"

 

[TomB]

Of course some of us have "Types" when we play, Ferret. Not all players who identify themselves as casual play with decks containing every card they own. Some of us like going to store tournaments to compete "casually", and others of us just like meeting new people to play with at events like these.

If you showed up at an event like this looking for a game with only a Type 1 legal deck in tow, you'd have real problems finding anyone new to play with. In fact, I'll admit that in my case this is exactly what happened when they first cooked up the idea for Type 2. I refused to construct a T2 legal deck for about 6 months, because I didn't think there was a need for T2, and that it was for "newbie weaklings" or something to that effect.

Anyway, I found it increasingly hard to pick up a game at the local card shop, since T2 tourneys were all they ran, and I was forced to come up with something T2 if I wanted to play there. This, of course, turned out to be my ill-fated AEther Storm deck, which was actually kind of fun to play, with Artifact creatures and Urza lands.

The point is, type is important to many casual players.

TomB
CPA Member
"...and Soldevi Simulacrum really rocked in it!!!"

 

[Dune Echo]

But "TYPE" shouldn't be! We're casual, all that should matter is the rule book in the 6th edition Starter packs. Hell, I'm being hypocritical as I make all my decks legal with a max of four of any card, but that's not in the rule book and that's all we should care about, right? I think they should reprint the reserved list and let it only be legal for casual players. If you don't want someone to play a particular card, then don't play them. That should be the only restriction/banning that there is in casual. I'd like to play with Mox and a Mana Crypt (one of each because I'm not a combo junkie, I like Albino Troll, Skyshroud Elite, and Treetop Village best! Creatures rule!). But I can't afford to and that's not what the game is about. In casual, a Black Lotus isn't as bad because most of us don't have even one and most of us don't enjoy the combos from hell that wreck the tournament scene. If they were to reprint Unlimited right now, I could buy about one box, if I was lucky. If I had one Mox Emerald, would I dominate all other players in my play group? I doubt it. I've seen a burn deck that has literally never been beaten by a regular, non-hoser deck. (When this guy is even remotely losing, he Earthquakes and kills EVERYONE! It's allowed.) Yeah, we like card interactions that are pure genius, but we make our own rules, right?

Arghhh. No one will ever win because WotC caters to their pocket book first and casual players last. That's why we need to get our voices together and tell WotC what the CASUAL players want in their casual games.