Writing down hands

Discussion in 'Rules Questions' started by Spiderman, Mar 21, 2008.

  1. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    In a Magic game, are you allowed to write down the cards in your opponent's hand after you play a "see hand" effect? The rules say you can take "brief notes", so does writing down the hand fall under that?
  2. DarthFerret Evil Sith Weasel

    That is a very interesting question. I would also like to know the answer, even though I will probably never be in a tourney situation.

    Spidey is working on Good Friday????
  3. Modus Pwnens Eligible for User Title

    According to the Universal Tournament Rules, "Players are allowed to take brief written notes regarding the current match and may refer to those notes while this match is in progress. Players are expected to take their notes in a timely fashion. Players who take too much time will be subject to the appropriate provisions of the DCI Penalty Guidelines.".

    So you are allowed to write down your opponents hand, but don't write every card full-out with oracle text etc, writing down the names won't take too long, so it's allowed.

    There isn't a specific time-limit, as long as you are withing reasonable limits, it's fine.
  4. Ransac CPA Trash Man

    I've always been under the impression that you could NOT write down opponent's hands.


    Ransac, cpa trash man
  5. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    That's what I found Modus, but on the other hand, a player's hand is considered "hidden information". But I just can't find anywhere something that explicitly states that you can't write down an opponent's hand after having seen it.
  6. Budget Player Cadet Where in the world is BPC

    I checked, it's legal at PTQ.
  7. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Where did you check?
  8. Modus Pwnens Eligible for User Title

    Hidden information is just for question-purposes. Let me clarify the new player communication guidelines a bit here, as I get the feeling you're confusion a few things.

    The private information you refer to is defined as "Any information that is not free or derived". A players hand will always be private information, simply because it isn't free/derived.
    If a player has no cards in his hand, he can still claim to have a spell saying "I win the game" in hand that he will cast next turn, simply because statements about private information (or future actions) to not have to be true in any way (although it would be a tough bluff to pull off ;)).

    The "publicity" of information is only relevant when you need to determine whether or not you're obliged to answer a question regarding this information.

    Let's have an examples:
    You have telepathy in play, so your opponent has to play with his hand revealed.
    If he draws an Asian Card, a strict interpretation of the Penalty Guidelines would suggest that, since a players hand is private information, he does not have to tell you what this card does.
    However, since you have telepathy in play, I would say that the players hand becomes free information as long as telepathy remains in play, as free information is "so called because all players are entitled access to this information without contamination or omissions made by their opponent.". Therefore, your opponent has to provide you with the English name of the card, and you can ask a judge for the oracle text if necessary.

    Again, you are allowed to write down whatever you want, as long as you do it in a timely fashion, and since you just resolved a spell that gave you quite some information, a timely fashion would be just enough time to write down all cards that are relevant.

    Don't go all mindmaster style, but a quick note is easy:

    1 exalted
    1 isamaru
    1 crusade
    3 plains

    This provides you with plenty information about your opponents hand, and shouldn't take more than a few seconds to write down. And hey, if your opponent calls a judge, you can just keep on writing while reminding your opponent of the unsporting conduct - minor offense.

    Ransac - it is definitely allowed to write down your opponents hand, even if he accidentally drops a card from his hand and it falls face-up.

    BPC - It's legal everywhere :)
  9. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Well, thanks guys.

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