Vwr Ftw

Discussion in 'Casual Decks/Variants/Etc' started by Shabbaman, Sep 10, 2008.

  1. Shabbaman insert avatar here

    I have a problem.

    Actually, that's not true. I have two problems. Or three, with the third problem being countless other problems that I will not discuss now. The other two problems are these two:

    1. I've been fascinated by Varchild's war-riders for years. Two mana for a 3/4 trampler, that's pretty good. It's drawback is something that could be overcome by running Pyroclasms and Earthquakes.

    2. My pet deck sucks. I'll show you the list, then I'll talk about the problem.

    4 VWR
    4 Hunted phantasm
    4 Hunted horror
    1 Hunted dragon
    1 Hunted troll

    1 Goblin sharpshooter
    1 Empress Galina

    4 Leyline of singularity
    1 Night of soul's betrayal
    1 Tainted aether
    1 Propaganda
    1 Ghostly prison

    1 Powder keg
    1 Engineered exlosives
    1 Dingus staff
    1 Sword of fire and ice

    1 Crime/punishment
    1 Earthquake

    4 Echoing truth
    1 shriveling rot
    1 Brand

    4 Forbidden orchard
    4 Polluted delta
    4 Gemstone mine
    2 Underground river
    1 Bayou
    1 Underground sea
    1 Tropical island
    1 Scrubland
    1 Badlands
    1 Swamp
    1 Island
    1 Urborg
    1 Izzet boilerworks
    1 Karakas

    Yup, that's a pile. To be honest, this is an old list. I've tried a lot to improve this particular list, like cutting some lands and adding brainstorms, cutting crap for tutors. The deck works if you get a Leyline plus a good creature in your opening hand. Let me put it this way: Serum powder is not the solution. Currently I'm thinking about changing some of the cards to 4x Engineered explosives. A great card in itself, and multipurpose.

    However, I feel the deck is fundamentally flawed. "Sure, that's what you get for running crap like the Hunted creatures." That's not what I mean though. The deck is built as an aggro deck, but it has too little aggro to be real aggro. The deck also lacks any form of late game. The main threat is also it's main weakness: Hunted horror. If I'd cut the horror, I could run 4x pyroclasm instead of 4x Echoing truth. That's what got me thinking: shouldn't this be a control deck at heart?

    The strongest play the deck has is in fact Tainted aether plus anything that kills creatures. Preferrably state based effects like NOSB or the leyline. Tainted aether is strong on it's own, because it gets rid of the donated tokens on it's own. The problem is that it's 4 mana, and that means turn 3 at best. I'm unsure how to build that deck. I'd start with 4x Pyroclasm I guess. Help is appreciated.
  2. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I know this kind of deck has come up before. Did you try a search and get any ideas from the results?
  3. Shabbaman insert avatar here

    The only card I hadn't thought of before is Mogg infestation. That's a solid trick. It does make the deck more dependable on having a permanent solution to tokens in play though. I also found Repercussion. Or better, found it again, because I did buy some Repercussions for this deck once. Also very dependent on other cards.

    Pestilence would make a good start for a control deck. But now there's Pyrohemia, which would work nicely with Subterranean spirit.

    EDIT: And Circle of affliction. Nice.
  4. rokapoke Man Among Gods

    Night of Soul's Betrayal? -1/-1 across the board?
  5. Rakarth New Member

    I think I need more explanation of the list if you could :)

    It's an aggro list that has a multitude of creatures that are cheap but with the drawback that you put a number of creatures into play under an opponents control.

    All I can suggest is things like Rain of Embers and Pyrohemia (2RR enchantment with R:~deals 1 damage to each creature and each player) or creatures that deal damage to everything as they come into play. Maybe Posionbelly Ogre? If you're going to be putting more creatures into play on your opponents side then they'll lose more life than you :) He may be to expensive for what you want though.

    There's the channel abilities on things like Arashi, The Sky Asunder or Jiwari, The Earth Aflame but they are expensive and restricted to flyers/non-flyers.

    I'm not sure if you want help with more cards or cutting down the ones you already have. Aether Flash along the lines of Tainted Aether. Late game Hamletback Goliath?

    I think you have to build this deck with the idea of holding off your opponent for at least three turns in order to set yourself up properly. Getting Leyline of Singularity into play if it's not in your opening hand or playing Tainted Aether then starting to play your creatures.

    I supppose you could try to build it solely around Tainted Aether and put in land destruction? Destroying lands will mean they will be unlikely to sac their lands for the sake of keeping the 1/1's the VWR's gives them which you can nuke with Rain of Embers/Pyroclasm, Pyrohemia or that the Leyline or Tainted Aether will take care of anyway.

    Hope I haven't just rambled at you :) and if I have then let me know more how you want the deck to work as I'm not quite sure at the moment.

    Rakarth
  6. Shabbaman insert avatar here

    Actually, both.

    I'd rather put someone (or better, a whole table) under a lock with Tainted aether, because aggro is pretty hopeless with this pile. I'd consider any of the creatures some kind of lock, but that doesn't really work.

    Right now I'm thinking about something like the following list:

    4 VWR
    4 Hunted phantasm
    1 Hunted dragon
    1 Hunted troll
    4 Plague spitter

    4 Leyline of singularity
    3 Tainted aether

    4 Engineered exlosives
    1 Powder keg
    1 Sword of fire and ice
    1 Serum powder

    4 Earthquake
    4 Pyroclasm
    1 Crime/punishment

    4 Forbidden orchard
    4 Polluted delta
    4 Gemstone mine
    1 Academy ruins
    1 Island
    1 Underground sea
    1 Tropical island
    1 Scrubland
    1 Badlands
    1 Golgari rotfarm
    1 Tolaria west
    1 Urborg
    1 Izzet boilerworks
    1 Karakas

    I feel it has too little creatures though. Without the Hunted horrors the need for Engineered explosives, powder keg and Crime might not bet there. Still, the key is to get to turn four, and then get the opponent(s) to put a lot of creatures into play.
  7. rokapoke Man Among Gods

    What about Goblin Sharpshooters? You could machine-gun the creature tokens you create for your opponent...
  8. Shabbaman insert avatar here

    I have one in the deck now, but it's always dead before it gets active (it lacks haste). It costs 3 mana, so you can kill tokens on turn 4. But on turn 4 you could play, well, better cards. Sharpshooter is good with the Leyline in play, but the deck doesn't suck with the Leyline in play. And it's not working great with Night of soul's betrayal, or something like Pyroclasm.

    A completely different deck would be with 4 Sharpshooters, Kiki-Jiki, Hunted phantasm and Brightstone ritual. Great (fire)balls of fire!
  9. BigBlue Magic Jones

    for those of us not in the know... what is VWR?

    Never mind.... :blush: read before asking questions... id10t
  10. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    I knew a guy that built an awesome deck using Varchild's War-Riders. I wish I'd written down the decklist, actually. I know it used Brand, Peacekeeper, Congregate, and Test of Endurance. Right now I can't remember any other cards...
  11. Shabbaman insert avatar here

    Peacekeeper... interesting. Ensnaring bridge does something similar, as do Propaganda and Ghostly prison. These last two cards work fine.
  12. mythosx Legendary Creature-Human

    I've been fascinated with VWR myself. I have always theorized that you could run 4 brands. Brand cost 1r. It states that you gain control of all cards you own. Since the tokens were created by a card that you played from your deck, according to the rules the tokens belong to you. Brand puts anything that belongs to you under your control. This also works with hunted creatures and pheldigriff. Thus all the 1/1s that were a hinderance are now a bonus!
  13. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Yes, this was exactly what my friend's deck did. He had various means of rendering the tokens harmless to himself (Peacekeeper is the one I remember best, but there were others) and he'd let the token army build up, then steal it with Brand. It was an extremely fun deck to play, but also a pretty powerful one.
  14. Shabbaman insert avatar here

    Brand begs for Gilded drake...

    EDIT: I'm not sold on Brand, because it is a dead card on it's own. On the upside, it cycles. Pretty hard to make room for it...

    I'm excited about Gilded drake though. Brand + Gilded drake is half a deck on it's own. Gilded drake has the same problem as Hunted horror: three toughness. Firespout is an option. Still, not much to do on the first couple of turns then.

    So, Equilibrium? That's evil with Gilded drake. Could you stack that correctly?

    I did find a beauty from planar chaos:

    Æther Membrane 1RR

    Defender, reach, 0/5 wall.
    Whenever Æther Membrane blocks a creature, return that creature to its owner's hand at end of combat.

    EDIT2: I was getting excited. The reason I was getting excited is that Tainted aether + Gilded drake would be just as awesome as Tainted aether + Gilded drake. But apparently the exchange ability only works if there's an actual exchange. You could sack the stolen creature obviously, but I can't say that's really benificial. Well, unless you play Brand next.

    Equilibrium + Gilded drake doesn't work as well, because the Drake isn't in play to target when you play it.
  15. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    I would think bounce spells would go better with Gilded Drake than Brand. That way you get to steal multiple creatures with the same Drake. I don't think Brand is a dead card with Varchild's War-Riders because it does have cycling and with War-Riders out, each Brand should be able to grab at least a couple of tokens. You could instead pack spells that kill he tokens, and they might be good even without War-Riders in play. I guess it depends on whether you want to exploit "3/4 trampler for cheap" or "cumulative token generator." Both could be made practical, but the latter is more unique...
  16. Shabbaman insert avatar here

    I've thought about it last night, but I want something to do with the tokens. I want to make the downside of VWR (and the hunted guys) an upside.

    Brand is good. I had dismissed it too soon. It cycles, so it can't be completely wrong in any situation. And that's exactly what I'm looking for. This thread also shows where it goes wrong in my deckbuilding: I stumble upon Gilded drake and begin to look for new additions and build a completely different deck with the same cards, instead of building the deck I was working on.

    And I want Tainted aether as the kill. The card can get rid of all the tokens, and can kill the opponent with Leyline out. The same goes for Goblin sharpshooter. I like the card, but it's so fragile. And the deck is so slow that it needs something like pyroclasm or earthquake. Still, it's an option. I don't want too many situational cards (like moonlit wake, burning sands).

    One interesting thought I had with both Brand and Gilded drake in mind is Astral slide. I doubt this is the deck for it though.

    EDIT:

    Some situational cards are better than others. Essence warden is a good card on it's own, yet like the sharpshooter it's very fragile. Moonlite wake for coming into play instead of going to the graveyard would be good. That's about as situational as I'd want to. And then there are helper cards. I'd put Shriveling rot and Congregate in this category. Culling scales could be an interesting card in the first category. Anyone played that?

    I've found a pretty pointless card that'd be very awesome with VWR (but not with any of the other cards):

    Mantle of Leadership 1W

    Planar Chaos uncommon

    Card Type: Enchantment - Aura

    Flash (You may play this spell any time you could play an instant.)
    Enchant creature
    Whenever a creature comes into play, enchanted creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
  17. Shabbaman insert avatar here

    I think I found the card that was in that deck: Angel's trumpet.
  18. Shabbaman insert avatar here

    Time for an update. I've been toying with the deck, this is how it is now:

    4 VWR
    4 Hunted phantasm
    1 Hunted horror
    1 Hunted dragon
    1 Hunted troll

    4 Leyline of singularity
    3 Tainted aether

    1 Engineered explosives
    1 Powder keg
    1 Serum powder
    1 Sword of fire and ice

    4 Brand
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Pyroclasm
    1 Propaganda
    1 Ghostly prison

    1 Crime/punishment
    2 Gaea's blessing

    4 Forbidden orchard
    4 Polluted delta
    4 Gemstone mine
    1 Island
    1 Academy ruins
    1 Underground sea
    1 Tropical island
    1 Scrubland
    1 Badlands
    1 Tolaria west
    1 Urborg
    1 Izzet boilerworks
    1 Karakas

    The Pyroclasms are more a placeholder card, sometimes I try Echoing truth instead. The 'clasms are good against weenies, not so good against other decks. My plan was to replace them with Engineered explosives, but because of the extended rotation they got pricey. I'm not such a big fan of Powder keg, so I don't see that as a proper replacement.

    I'm still not happy with the deck. It's more consistent with the brands and the brainstorms, but Tainted aether is just so slooooow.

    So.

    As I was in the process of making decks with all the cards I have lying around (the first step towards getting rid of unwanted cards...) I came across Toshiro Umezawa. What I forgot to mention properly in the opening post was that this deck started as a Toshi deck. It's a decent card in itself, but it can be a proper card advantage engine. Enough bla bla, on to the new deck:

    4 VWR
    4 Hunted phantasm
    1 Hunted horror
    1 Hunted dragon
    1 Hunted troll
    3 Toshiro Umezawa

    4 Leyline of singularity

    1 Engineered exlosives
    1 Powder keg

    4 Brand
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Terminate
    1 Forbid
    1 Capsize
    1 Fact or fiction
    1 Hanabi blast
    1 shriveling rot
    1 Corpse dance

    4 Forbidden orchard
    4 Polluted delta
    1 Swamp
    1 Island
    1 Academy ruins
    1 Underground sea
    1 Tropical island
    1 Scrubland
    1 Badlands
    1 Tolaria west
    1 Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
    1 Dimir aquaducts
    1 Rakdos carnarium
    1 Golgari rotfarm
    1 Izzet boilerworks
    1 Karakas

    I'm not completely happy with it, but there is some room for improvement. The brands and brainstorms are still there, as I'm happy with them. There's a bunch of instants that do some cool stuff with Toshi (you know, play them, replay them with toshi but with buyback so they;re in your hand). I think it's pretty cool. I made it legacy-legal, but if you don't care about that you could (should, if you're playing with the vintage/type 1 br-list) replace 3 of the brainstorms with Vampiric tutor or any other instant tutor and some tutor targets.

    I have another idea to make the list even smoother. Since I cut Tainted aether the number of creatures the opponent gets doesn't really matter anymore, and since there's no sharpshooter or pyroclasm there's no reason not to run (more) Hunted horror... plus... there's Toshi... and... (suspense) Dark ritual is an instant. So, cut the singletons and you'd end up with this:

    4 VWR
    4 Hunted phantasm
    4 Hunted horror
    1 Hunted dragon
    3 Toshiro Umezawa

    4 Leyline of singularity

    1 Engineered exlosives
    1 Powder keg

    4 Brand
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Lightning bolt
    4 Dark ritual

    4 Forbidden orchard
    4 Polluted delta
    1 Swamp
    1 Island
    1 Academy ruins
    1 Underground sea
    1 Tropical island
    1 Scrubland
    1 Badlands
    1 Tolaria west
    1 Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
    1 Dimir aquaducts
    1 Rakdos carnarium
    1 Golgari rotfarm
    1 Izzet boilerworks
    1 Karakas

    I changed the Terminates to Lightning bolt, because the Hunted Horror tokens have protection from black. Diabolic edict would be solid as well. So, what do you think?

    EDIT: I found that the dark rituals aren't that good. Theoretically it'd let you get more mana out of the graveyard, and pay for other cards out of the graveyard. That's still possible, but then the other instants should be black (or require a lot of uncolored mana). Diabolic edict surely fits. But I think the card that makes perfect sense is Orim's chant. I don't have any, unfortunately. And they're pricey.
  19. Shabbaman insert avatar here

    Well, with M10 rule changes I can't really use Brand anymore. So I'll have to retool the deck... again. And just as I'd gotten so thrilled about Brand, together with Toshi. I could draw a card, kill a creature with an instant and then steal my tokens back. When it worked, it worked really well.

    Bummer.

    And it was my pet deck :(

    Without Brand I'm not sure I still want or need to run Toshi anymore. I guess that means it'll be a Tainted Aether deck again. Suggestions are mostly welcome (especially as this thread has too many of my posts in a row)!
  20. Ransac CPA Trash Man

    Perhaps AEther Flash?


    Ransac, cpa trash man

Share This Page