Volcanic Eruption - Targeting in general

Discussion in 'Rules Questions' started by BigBlue, Apr 8, 2009.

  1. BigBlue Magic Jones

    When you play Volcanic Eruption -

    Cost: XUUU
    Card Type: Sorcery

    Rules Text (Oracle): Destroy X target Mountains. Volcanic Eruption deals damage to each creature and each player equal to the number of Mountains destroyed this way.

    Ruling: 10/4/2004 Can be used with X equal to zero. This is useful if no Mountains are in play.

    Doesn't it have to have X legal target mountains? So, if you then use Spectral Shift to alter Mountains to Swamps - you can't use it to now target swamps, can you?

    If there were mountains in play and you shifted it, could you then change the targets to Swamps?

    Or, am I missing something?
  2. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I believe there has to be Mountains in play for it to be cast initially, but then you can use Spectral Shift to change it to Swamps to it'll affect Swamps when it resolves.
  3. Ransac CPA Trash Man

    I believe your interpretation is correct. Once you have priority and the chance to be able to cast the Spectral Shift, you will already have had to declare targets for the Eruption. This combo does not work for whomever envisioned it.

    ADDITION: It does not say "Declare X target lands. If those lands are Mountains, etc... It says "Target Mountains" You must target mountains with this and nothing else initially. This would be like attempting to cast Disenchant on a Creature and then trying to find a way to chance Artifact to Creature. It doesn't work.

    ADDITION Pt. 2: NOW, if there WERE mountains in play and then you Spectral Shifted and THEN cast a spell that changed targets, this would work...... seems like a lotta work, though.

    Ransac, cpa trash man
  4. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    It's for a BYOS game... ;)
  5. BigBlue Magic Jones

    Well, if you had 3 Volcanic Islands in play - and they were targetted w/ VE... If you then Spectral shifted it to Swamps, and then played Fork - you could target 3 opponents swamps with the copy... But, I think the way this is worded you'd lose your Volcanic Islands too - because it doesn't appear to check for legal targets on resolution - only on casting... Or am I wrong?

    (We're talking about a potential 2 or 3 card combo which would cost a whopping 1URR (4UUUURR if you played VE) but would destroy 3 of your opponents lands (and 3 of your own lands?) and deal 3 (6) damage to all creatures and players...) You'd be much better off with Wild Riccochet instead of Fork - since you could retarget the original (after changing it to swamps) and create a copy w/ new targets.
  6. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    It will check for legal targets on resolution and be countered if it can't find any. So in your example above, if I understand correctly, the original VE was changed to Swamps and the copy from Fork also targets Swamps, so the copy would destroy the opponent's Swamps (which is what is targeted) and the original would be countered on resolution (or "fizzle") since the Volcanic Islands are NOT Swamps...
  7. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Yeah, I think so too.
  8. Ransac CPA Trash Man

    Though, the answer to the original question is that you won't the time after you cast volcanic eruption to spectral shift it.

    Ransac, cpa trash man
  9. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Which original question? The first post or the scenario BigBlue brought up in post #5?
  10. Ransac CPA Trash Man

    First post...

    Ransac, cpa trash man
  11. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Oh, I thought we already answered that.

    But yeah, if you have to target Mountains for the spell to be cast anyway, unless you're casting it on your own lands and Forking like BigBlue suggests, you might as well destroy your opponent's Mountains rather than change it to another land type (unless there's an Enchant Land on another land type you need to get rid of or something).
  12. Modus Pwnens Eligible for User Title

    What'll happen is the following:

    You play Volcanic Eruption, targeting X mountains in play.
    Should the Eruption resolve now, it would check if all targeted lands are mountains, and destroy all those that are (so if you would spectral shift one of those mountains into a swamp before the spell resolved, that land wouldn't be destroyed, and the Eruption deals one less damage than the value of X, since one land less is destroyed).

    If you instead choose to play Spectral Shift, targeting the Eruption and change the mountains into swamps, then let it resolve, only those targeted lands that are swamps will be destroyed, and then all creatures and players are dealt that much damage. In this case, it seems most likely that only Badlands would be destroyed.

    Forking the Eruption will not work, because the way layering works, copy effects apply before text-changing effects, thus Fork would create a copy of Volcanic Eruption, which has to target mountains when it is put on the stack, regardless of the current text of the original Eruption.
  13. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    With Fork, it doesn't matter if you wait until Spectral Shift resolves to change to Swamps? The copy will still say Mountains?
  14. Ransac CPA Trash Man

    So, what you're saying then is that the Initial targets for the Eruption must STILL be Mountains, but when the Spectral Shift resolves, the Eruption will continue to target those lands BUT will destroy them only if the originally targeted Mountains are Swamps as well...

    Ransac, cpa trash man
  15. Modus Pwnens Eligible for User Title

    Spidey: Yes, the copy is not affected by the text-changing effect created by Spectral Shift, but will create a copy using the so-called copy-able characteristics. Any copy from Volcanic Eruption on the stack will be "Volcanic Eruption, XUUU (with X being the same value of the original spell). Sorcery. Destroy X target Mountains. Volcanic Eruption deals damage to each creature and each player equal to the number of Mountains destroyed this way"
    This is regardless of what happened to the original spell (like changing it's color with a Vodalian Mystic, changing mountains to swamps with Spectral Shift, etc).
    If there are not enough legal targets for the spell (there were 5 mountains, X is 5 for the original spell, then before Fork resolves, one of those mountains is destroyed) the copy can't go on the stack.

    Ransac: No, I was saying that the targets of the spell are checked for legality (if that's a proper word) both on playing and on resolving the spell. It doesn't matter that it checks for a different landtype, the targets are still the same, but the targeting restriction (target mountain has changed to target swamp) is altered.
    This means that when you play the spell, you have to target X different mountains, and when it resolves it checks to see if it's targets are still legal. If the spell still says "X target mountains" then most likely not much will have changed, but if instead is says "X target swamps" because of Spectral Shift, the spell won't destroy any mountains targeted by the spell (since they have become an illegal target for the spell).

    Is that any more clear?
  16. Ransac CPA Trash Man

    Not really any more clear, but I think we're on the same page.

    My understanding: You cannot play Volcanic Eruption targeting any non-mountains. MTGO won't even allow one to attempt this action. Therefore, when you initially announce the intent to play this spell, it must target mountains.

    You can Spectral shift this card to read Swamps. If this is the case, then EVERY TARGET for the original spell must be swamps in addition to their mountain type. If some are swamp and some are not, then the spell fizzles due to the fact that a spell cannot resolve with an illegal target.

    Good Play (but why?): Volcanic Eruption targeting 4 Blood Crypt, spectral shifting to read "Swamp." 4 Blood Crypts die.

    Not Good Play: Volcanic Eruption targeting 2 Blood Crypts and 2 Mountains, spectral shifting to read "Swamp." Due to illegal targets upon final target check during the attempted resolution of the spell, the spell fizzles.

    Ransac, cpa trash man
  17. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    That's not how I read it. The spell will resolve to the best of its ability, destroying those which are Swamps and ignoring those which aren't. It's the same principle as any multi-target spell.
  18. Ransac CPA Trash Man

    How can a spell resolve it one of its targets is illegal?

    Ransac, cpa trash man
  19. Ransac CPA Trash Man

    I'm wrong. Found the rule (413.2a):

    "....The spell or ability is countered if ALL its targets, for every instance of the word "target," are now illegal. "

    You guys are right, but it seems to not function well with the game. How can one part of a spell resolve and another not?

    Ransac, cpa trash man
  20. BigBlue Magic Jones

    So, you'd have to switch land types of the lands before playing VE... got it! :)

    Now, if they made this Spell:

    Stake a Claim - UU - Instant

    Choose a basic land type. Choose one - The next time you play a spell, you may switch all instances of basic land types on that spell to the chosen basic land type; or the next time you play a land with a basic land type, you may Change all basic land types to the chosen basic land type.

    So, if you played this spell before playing VE, you could name swamps, then VE would target swamps instead of mountains... Or, if you played a Volcanic Island, it would instead be a Swamp Swamp instead of an Island Mountain.

    Or, you could name plains - and create a plainswalking Bog Wraith.... :D

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