Type 1 Sligh - Help!

[Istanbul]

Here's my situation.

In my local Type 1 tournaments, I'm seeing a lot of slow decks. Really slow. Infinite turn stuff. So I'm gonna make a fast deck to beat them...REALLY fast. Sligh comes to mind.

I've already got the bare bones set up:

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Incinerate
3x Fireblast
2x Kaervek's Torch

4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Jackal Pup
4x Ball Lightning
2x Cursed Scroll

17x Mountain
1x Strip Mine
1x Wasteland

That's 50 cards.

But what fills in those last ten slots? I need recommendations. Please, no Moxen/Lotus recommendations needed...I won't be picking up any cards that cost more than $10.

 

[John`O]

Play more 1 drop creatures
add 4 Goblin Cadets
and maybe some Gorilla Shaman.

Play more land, add Wastelands and/or Mishras
until you have 22-24.

Add a 4th Fireblast.

That should get you to 60.

Also think about maybe playing Shock over Chain
and maybe cutting a Ball Lightning for another 1 drop.

Don't add in bad cards like Fork/Grenade/Wheel.


John

 

[Spiderman]

Why is the Wheel bad here?

 

[Mundungu]

Cant you add even a sol ring ??

If they are "slow decks" it means they need more ressources so I agree with the wastelands/strip mine.

You might also want to add nev disks to reset the board.

maybe earthquake.
Urza's rage ?
Avalanche riders ?
Dwarven Miner (2R, T destriy target non basic land)
Masticore ? (I know, probably above the 10$ limit but you have cursed scroll so ...)

 

[rakso]

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Incinerate
3x Fireblast
2x Kaervek's Torch --> Too slow. Replace with 1 Fireblast, 1 Wheel

4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Jackal Pup
4x Ball Lightning
2x Cursed Scroll

17x Mountain --> too few, given Cursed Scroll & Ball. Add 1.
1x Strip Mine
1x Wasteland --> too few. Add 2, or 3 and 1 less Mountain.

1 Wheel
2 Scroll
16 Burn
12 Creature
22 Land (can cut to 20 if you drop Ball or Wasteland)

For the last 7 slots:
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Fork (or something else, if you don't like it)
4 Flame Rift, Reckless Abandon or Goblin Cadets (or Patrol if you feel it won't work in the environment)


Ball Lightning can be bad in some places since it's killable and ties up one turn. Fork is funny since it allows you to react to things from counters to Ancestral, but it can be a dead card (I posted it since I think you want fun).

For reference, my casual deck (not quite Sligh) is:

Burn Spells (25)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Goblin Grenade
4 Ball Lightning
1 Fork

Goblins (10)
2 Goblin Lackey
2 Goblin Vandal
3 Goblin Patrol
3 Mogg Fanatic

Card Drawing (5)
4 Cursed Scroll
1 Wheel of Fortune

Mana (20)
20 Mountain

Discussed in: http://www.bdominia.addr.com/discus/articles/goblinburnFAQ.html

 

[Istanbul]

Okay, Round 1.

JohnO - I like the way you think. I was already thinking that 4 Ball Lightnings might be a bit much. Didn't the Sligh decks of Tempest used to run less than 20 land, though? Oh well. I don't think I'll go 22-24, but I'll probably do 20-21.
More one-drops GOOD. I just couldn't think of any good ones. Gorilla Shaman is tempting, yes. I'll probably plunk three in.
I loathe Goblin Cadets.
I'm worried about running too many Fireblasts, with a limited number of Mountains...I don't want it sitting in my hand, uncastable.
I play Chain Lighting because it's 1 mana for 3 damage, and only Lightning Bolt is as good.
I had no intention of adding Grenade, but I like both Fork and Wheel in this deck.

Mundungu - No on all counts.
Sol Ring will be mostly useless, given the general lack of colorless mana in the CC of the spells I'm using.
I NEVER want to activate Nevinyrral's Disk. It won't happen before Turn 5, and if I need a Disk on Turn 5, I'm already dead.
Earthquake will kill all of my creatures.
Urza's Rage not only goes above my $10 mark, but it's 3 mana for 3 damage...great in Type II, AWFUL in Type 1.
Riders cost 4 with echo.
Dwarven Miners are 3 for a 1/1 with a controllish special ability.
Masticore costs 4, AND eats a card every turn. If this deck works right, I won't have a card to feed him.
I think you've mistaken my intent...I'm trying for speed-kill, not control.

Rakso - I say Kaervek's Torch so that I can push through a kill with a spell that's harder to counter. My opponents all use a lot of Force of Will, and aren't afraid to tap out because of it; I want to punish them for that.
I'll probably add one Mountain and two Wastelands.
Four Cursed Scrolls, huh? Hmmmm. If I get two, one will probably never get activated...I'll probably go to three.
FLAME RIFT! That's the one I was thinking of! It's in.

So, here's how the revised deck looks:

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Incinerate
4x Flame Rift
3x Fireblast
2x Kaervek's Torch
3x Cursed Scroll

24 Burn spells

4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Jackal Pup
3x Ball Lightning
3x Goblin Patrol

14 Creature spells

18x Mountain
1x Strip Mine
3x Wasteland

22 Land spells

That's 60 cards...now all I have to do is get the cards for it.

 

[Landkiller]

Mages' Contest and Pyroblast are awesome.


Consider the following Burn...
Kindle
Guerilla Tactics (more SB)
Price of Progress (so mandatory, if not main this is autoSB)
Scent of Cinder (SO POWERFUL!)

Spells...
Raze
Black Vise (Awesome...only on first-second turn, though. But makes some decks pay in spades, with your backup LD)
Repercussion (IF you face creature decks like 10 land Stompy)

Lands...
Ghitu Encampment
Mishra's Factory

Artifacts...
Winter Orb will go a long way to even the odds. But don't be hasty to add a Disenchant target. Maybe SB to surprise opponents who just sided out thier Disenchants?




Creature...
Avalanche Riders come to mind...but they slow you too much. What about Mogg Sentry?
Viashino Sandstalker is a powerful guy.


SB...
Things Sligh Hates...
Hidden Gibbons
Oath of Druids
COP : Red
Worship

so, basically, enchantments. Add Plateau maindeck and Aura Blast or Seal of Cleansing SB if these prove problematic.

Add Duallands to give you access to strength mono-red doesn't have, at a minimal cost.

Reduce number of lands by playing 2 Land Grant and 4 Taiga, unless Wasteland is an issue.

Vs. Other Sligh...
Ensnaring Bridge will render Ball Lightning Unusable.

 

[rakso]

Originally posted by Istanbul
Okay, Round 1.

>>>Didn't the Sligh decks of Tempest used to run less than 20 land, though? Oh well. I don't think I'll go 22-24, but I'll probably do 20-21.

If you have Wasteland AND Ball Lightning, you need to increase the land count to get RRR third turn.

>>>I loathe Goblin Cadets.

They work when they work.

>>>I'm worried about running too many Fireblasts, with a limited number of Mountains...I don't want it sitting in my hand, uncastable.

You WANT to see Fireblast.

>>>I NEVER want to activate Nevinyrral's Disk. It won't happen before Turn 5, and if I need a Disk on Turn 5, I'm already dead.

Not necessarily, but a better argument is that Scroll can finish in roughly the same time as it takes to activate Disk and rebuild.

>>>Urza's Rage not only goes above my $10 mark, but it's 3 mana for 3 damage...great in Type II, AWFUL in Type 1.

It's not even great in Type II, except there's nothing much better that deals 3 damage.

>>>Masticore costs 4, AND eats a card every turn. If this deck works right, I won't have a card to feed him.

Wanna bet?

>>>I say Kaervek's Torch so that I can push through a kill with a spell that's harder to counter. My opponents all use a lot of Force of Will, and aren't afraid to tap out because of it; I want to punish them for that.

Punish them by playing correctly. You have more cheese than they have counters. If your opponents are like this, it sounds like they can't even counter intelligently!

Besides, Scroll damage can't be countered.

>>>I'll probably add one Mountain and two Wastelands.
Four Cursed Scrolls, huh? Hmmmm. If I get two, one will probably never get activated...I'll probably go to three.

No problem. It's just that drawing more than 1 is usually forgiveable, especially when the opponent can Disenchant.

>>>FLAME RIFT! That's the one I was thinking of! It's in.

It works and gets past Ivory Mask, too.



Anyway, the revsised deck is better, but I advise dropping Torch for a Wheel of Fortune and the last Fireblast.

 

[Duel]

I REALLY dislike goblin patrol. Okay, most of my testing has gone into the beatdown side of beatdown (stompy over sligh), but echo creatures, in fact, ANY creatures that tie up your mana on turn 2, and prevent 2 more fellas from joining the fight, is bad. The Gorilla Shamas fill that spot nicely, no? If not, maybe Raging goblin. Goblin spy?

 

[Spiderman]

But I liked the Wheel and Black Vise idea... and it's a one drop!

 

[rakso]

Originally posted by Duel
I REALLY dislike goblin patrol.

I agree, except in the case of Goblin Patrol and of Albino Troll, since these usually get played in decks whose mana curves aren't disrupted by echo.

Here, he has 1-drops and Ball Lightning, so if you can't use Goblin Cadets, you don't really get disrupted unless you topdeck a Goblin Patrol 2nd turn and play it, then topdeck Ball Lightning.

Raging Goblin sucks. He does an extra point of damage if drawn early, then becomes Mons Goblin Raiders.

Gorilla Shaman doesn't work in all environments and also becomes Mons Goblin Raiders if that happens.

Heck in my fun deck, I put in Lackeys but have nothing but 1 mana Goblins. It drives my opponent nuts and they waste their creaturekill on it, but it is great having three or four creatures in play by turn 2 if first-turn Lackey gets through.

As for Black Vise, it's more of a random card now that it's restricted, and may be dead if not played very early.

 

[Gizmo]

Do anything JohnO says.
Probably best to ignore all conflicting advice.

 

[Spiderman]

But he still hasn't explained why the Wheel (and the Fork and Grenade, although everyone seems to agree on the Grenade) is bad...

 

[rakso]

Wheel of Fortune? Bad in a red deck with cheap spells?

That'll be the day...

 

[Spiderman]

That's what JohnO said...

 

[John`O]

I wouldn't play Wheel because most of the time
it helps your opponent enough that it isn't worthwhile.
Many type 1 decks are searching for key cards to dominate the game
(e.g. Keeper) or straight out win it (various combo) and giving them
7 cards while probably tapping out and letting them have first
use of the new hand is probably not that great.
If Wheel was instant it would be very good
If I knew what I was likely to play against its possible that Wheel would
be an OK choice, but there would probably be better metagame cards whatever.
Ishii , Godinez , Kastle all played sligh in Syndey and none of them played
Wheel, even though they had Moxes making it a better card in their decks.
Before Necro was restricted Wheel was a little bit better.

If I was to play T1 mono sligh without power cards
would play something like

4 Goblin Cadet
4 Jackal Pup
2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Mogg Fanatic / or maybe 4 Shaman 2 Fanatic
2 Ball Lightning
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
2 Shock
4 Incinerate
4 Fireblast
2 Price of Progress / or maybe more Shock
16 Mountain
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Mishra's Factory / probably play these might not

but probably metagamed a bit maybe maindeck Pyro
maybe more Scrolls, maybe Blood Moon, maybe Tactics.
Wouldn't mind 2-3 Ironclaw Orcs to have some guys
that don't get Kegged as much.
Flame Rift would be OK if there aren't any other creature decks.

John

 

[Spiderman]

What you say makes sense, especially since Isty says he's expecting to face a lot of slow, infinite turn decks.

But I'm also thinking:

a) you're drawing cards and that can't be all that bad.
b) Since I don't see any mana acceleration, I assume it's going to be cast by third turn, at the earliest. So you are probably refilling your hand and maybe can get to the burn spells, drop a land if you haven't already, and also use Fireblast if you get them.
c) If you're not casting by third turn, you have more mana presumably available to cast more low cc stuff.


Hey, would Pyrokinesis be good in here? It's an ACC and maybe you can use it to get rid of blockers so your creatures can come in (also good to get with the Wheel).

 

[Istanbul]

Round 2...Fight!

Landkiller - Pyroblast is in the SB, Mages' Contest doesn't even come close.
Kindle is only good in multiples.
Guerilla Tactics is only good against discard, and not worth a slot.
Price of Progress...hmmm. Quite playable, maindeck.
Scent of Cinder *always* turned out to be a dead card, unless it's in my opening hand...and sometimes even then.
Raze...no. I'm short enough on land already.
Black Vise is playable, but...if not in my opening hand, it's all but useless.
Repercussion...nah. Again, if my opponent plays a swarm, I can just cook them.
I don't like Ghitu Encampment in this deck. Slows down my mana production.
Mishra's Factory...nah. I already have enough colorless mana producing lands.
Winter Orb could be amusing, but it slows me down, too...I can't afford any loss of tempo.
Avalanche Riders are too costly, and I'm NOT playing LD...and I already have creatures for my 3-manaslot.
I don't fear Gibbons, OathofDruids, COP Red, or Worship...the first three can be gotten around by burningly-fast speed, and the last...well, that's why Ghod made Anarchy in the sideboard and Cursed Scroll maindeck.
Ensnaring Bridge will render BL unusable...so if I see 'em, I board in something else.

rakso - More often than not, I've seen Goblin Cadets NOT work.
I DO want to see Fireblast. I DON'T want to see two Fireblasts, and three land.
Yes. I won't be running Masticore, as he'll DEVOUR my hand.
I also want an X-spell in there, just in case...and Kaervek's Torch fits the bill.
Wheel of Torture is tempting...I also found a Fork, and I'm gonna try to make room for it.

Duel- If you can name me another 2-power creature for 1 mana, I'm all over it...

JohnO - WHOOPS! HELLO! Upon checking my stash of cards, I discover that Goblin Cadets are a 2 power creature, not a 1 power creature. In they go.
Price of Progress is going main-deck, and Blood Moon is going into the sideboard.
Rrrrgh...must...find...room...for...Gorilla...Shaman...
You also have a point about the Wheel...I'm giving my opponent 7 new cards and saying 'Go'. With all the combo decks I'm facing, that could be instant death.

OKAY!

Sligh ver. 3.0

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Incinerate
4x Chain Lightning
2x Flame Rift (my environment tends to have ONE creature: Morphling)
3x Price of Progress (my environment OOZES non-basic land)
3x Fireblast

4x Mogg Fanatic
3x Goblin Cadets
4x Jackal Pup
2x Ball Lightning
2x Gorilla Shaman

3x Cursed Scroll

18x Mountain
3x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine

SB:
3x Anarchy (COP: Red, Worship, and Ivory Mask are NOT my friends)
4x Pyroblast (lots of blue)
3x Scald (did I mention lots of blue?)
2x Blood Moon (possibly lockdown vs. many decks I face)
3x Earthquake (juuuuust in case)

Ready for another round.

 

[rakso]

I find this to be an interesting opinion, but in the years I've played it, I simply never lost a game after playing Wheel of Fortune using a mono red deck.

Most of the time, yes, they're getting cards too, but most of the time they'll have more cards in hand since you shouldl've emptied yours fast. When Sligh is reduced to a topdeck situation, that is the point when it can be dominated, and Wheel of Fortune and Cursed Scroll are main cards that get you out of that.

Yes, your opponent can draw into a new hand which includes "silver bullets"; he can even tutor in response to Wheel. But you can be wrecking a built up hand, too, and I still think that refilling your more depleted hand is better.

You are actually overestimating the control and combo decks here. I play my Keeper version against one particular friend's Sligh deck and always go 50-50, depending on our draws. There is no single "silver bullet" for Sligh, and you have to get BOTH Ivory Mask and Moat in play, and even then have to watch out for Flame Rift and Price of Progress.

As for combo... well, combo is generally no longer fast enough to overtake aggro decks in Type I.

Finally, I think Wheel and Timetwister and even Windfall work well enough for aggressive Type I decks since they differentiate the Zoo decks from something like Type II Fires. Playing these, I always find myself needing to tutor for and regrow Wheel and Timetwister to accelerate the deck, and this is against most opponents.

I note that Alex Shvartsman tried Zoo without the Wheel and Timetwister card advantage engines, and didn't win a match, even after first-turn Blastoderm.

Yes, there are some games you wouldn't play these, but even some Type I control players swear by Timetwister as an emergency card in their decks, though it is in fact dead in a lot of situations. (Jon Finkel maindecked it, incidentally.)

As for your reference to the Sligh players who did not use Wheel, well, Ben Rubin used both Wheel of Fortune AND Timetwister in his deck (though he had to forego Fireblast for this) and placed 2-1 just like Kastle and Ishii, and placed higher than Godinez's 1-2.

Dave Price also used Timetwister in his arfifact-fatty based deck, and his deck is proven to work. He also went 2-1.

I'd also note that maybe Kastle was more interested in Cursed Scroll as his backup plan.

I'm also not sure about how much Ishii knows about Type I, since his deck had a subtheme of trying to shut down Moxen, and he even had a maindeck Artifact Blast.

I honestly wouldn't listen to the "pros" on Type I, except the people who do play it. Mike Pustilnik has a mean Keeper variant I hear, and his tech is Mishra's Factory, for example.

 

[rakso]

This was an interesting discussion, so I posted the link in Beyond Dominia.

Some answers came up there within fifteen minutes of my post.

Here's the link if you're interested:

http://www.bdominia.addr.com/discus/messages/9/11596.shtml

By Rorschach, the Lurker with Wisdomy Stuff (Rorschach) on Wednesday, February 28, 2001 - 09:45 pm:
Wheel of Fortune is very good in a sligh deck IMO. You don't tap out though in casting it it is more of a fifth turn type spell used for refueling the emptied hand of a sligh player who can then go "Lightning Bolt, Incinerate, Fireblast, fireblast. You're dead."

John must have been very confused about how to use the Wheel.
Rorschach



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By Nevyn, the Village Idiot (Nevyn) on Wednesday, February 28, 2001 - 10:15 pm:
Rush decks tend to run out of cards and threats, and usually have fewer cards than the opponent. This means that

a) Wheel gives more net cards to the sligh player

b) Wheel can put sligh 'over the top'

Also , a sligh deck can use up a full hand in 1-2 turns, while more controlling decks will take longer to use their options. The only possible knock against wheel is that it is a non threat card. However I believe it to be an integral part of the deck. If you can make it resolve, your ratio of questions to opponent's answers almost always improves, and it can also take out key cards that are tutored for and powerful card drawing spells. (I learned that trying to save a FoF against K-Run's deck. An instant card drawing spell is only a topdeck prayer when wheel is on the stack, instead of a game winning card advantage.



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By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, February 28, 2001 - 10:25 pm:
Bolt, Wheel, Fireblast Fireblast. Sounds like a good fourth turn to me after a Ball Lightning....