Timing of CIP

Discussion in 'Rules Questions' started by cbearsbro, Jan 29, 2001.

  1. cbearsbro Nightwing

    After reading the thread about the meddling mage, I wanted to get a "ruling" or definition of when the Comes Into Play ability triggers. Does it happen when I announce the creature I'm putting out. Or only after it's successfully cast? i.e. didn't get counterspelled or something.

    The question also applies to those creatures with echo. Do their CIP abilities happen only AFTER you've paid the second half of the casting cost? I know their activated abilities don't work until then. But do their CIP abilities? :confused:
  2. Lotus Mox New Member

    The CIP triggers when the creature enters play not when you announce the creature, even if it has Echo.

    Speaking of Echo-creatures:
    You can definitely use their abilities before you pay their second cost(which isn't part of the casting cost), like regenerating an albino troll.

    I think you refer to abilities which include the TAP-Symbol, they also can be played before you pay the second cost, as soon as summoning sickness wears of, so you can use the abilities on your upkeep before you choose whether to pay echo or not.
  3. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    CIP abilities trigger after it's been successfully resolved and goes on the stack at the next opportunity. They most likely say "When".

    CIP abilities only happen after they've been put into play. So if you're playing the echo during upkeep, they have already been in play and CIP abilities will NOT trigger.

    And actually, yes, you CAN use their activated abilities before you pay the echo. It depends how you put them on the stack at the beginning of upkeep:

    You could say:

    Activate ability
    Pay echo


    Pay echo
    Activate ability
  4. cbearsbro Nightwing

    Me: Hmmm... but if you activate ability and DON'T pay it's echo cost, it wouldn't happen, right?

    Sorry get very confused on timing issues sometimes :eek:
  5. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Correct. If the spell is countered, it has not entered play so any CIP abilities will NOT trigger.

    The difference between "as" and "when" is in another thread; from what I gather, "as" means its ability triggers immediately upon casting while "when" means it triggers when it enters play (after it has successfully resolved)

    Sorry, I messed up. Because echo is already defined as "At beginning of upkeep", the only way the stack can go is:

    Opt to pay echo
    Activate ability

    So you can use its ability and then not pay echo. Sorry.
  6. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    Okay, I'm going to try to clear this one up.

    "As ~ comes into play" is not a triggered ability. It is an additional instruction, which is applied as part of a spell's resolution.

    "When ~ comes into play" is a triggered ability, and will go on the stack as soon as a player would recieve priority, after the trigger event (~ comes into play) occurs.


    "As Whatzit comes into play, sacrifice all creatures you control."

    In this case, you must sacrifice all creatures you control at the same time that you are putting Whatzit into play.
    By the time Whatzit is in play, you will control no creatures.

    "When Whatzit comes into play, sacrifice all creatures you control."

    In this case, Whatzit comes into play, then its ability triggers and puts a psuedospell on the stack that says "You sacrifice all creatures you control."
    Now, players get priority and can play instants (like Fling) and abilities, which will resolve before the Whatzit's CIP ability does.


    If you still don't understand, ICQ me, PM me, or email me, and I'll do my best to help you out.
  7. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    The confusion over echo and whether you can play a permanent's abilites before paying echo arises from the 5th edition rules (and, I presume, from the Urza's Saga rules insert, whic was released during the reign of the 5th edition rules).

    Simple answer:

    Echo is a conditionally triggered ability, which goes on the stack and can be responded to as normal.

    History Lesson (optional):

    Back when 5th edition rules were still in official use (almost two years ago, I'd like to mention) it was illegal to use a permanent's abilities until all upkeep payments -- including echo -- had been paid.

    So, if you had an enchantment with the text...

    During your upkeep, pay GG or sacrifice ~.
    2G: All lands you control are 1/1 creatures until end of turn.

    ...you would not be able use the second ability until after you paid the upkeep cost.

    With the current rules, you can use a permanent's abilities before you pay upkeep costs, thanks to the stack rules and the errata of "During your upkeep" to "At the beginning of your upkeep" on cards with costs like this.
  8. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    For the difference between "as" and "when"... I must be going brain-dead, 'cause I knew that deep down :)
  9. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    Always a pleasure...always. ;)

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