Tap the Avatar...

Discussion in 'Rules Questions' started by jcredberry, Aug 28, 2000.

  1. jcredberry Gochan Warlord

    Yesterday I got this big argue about tapping the Avatar of Woe of my opponent using the Trickster Mage ability during his upkeep before he can use the Avatar's ability to destroy my creatures... Twice we had this argue, the first time he had his Avatar untapped during his upkeep, but the second time he had it tapped...

    He told me I can't use the Mage ability because the Avatar's ability goes to the stack with him having the priority...

    Is this true???
  2. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I'm not sure what's the problem here... it's just a simple case of "instants/abilities" responding to "instants/abilities".

    You want to tap his Avatar, he can tap in response and destroy a creature and you end up tapping an already tapped Avatar (why you would want to untap him is beyond me :))

    He wants to tap and destroy a creature, you respond by tapping an already tapped Avatar (pretty useless).

    Bottom line: both can respond to the other, but the Avatar going to be destroying SOMETHING (unless its target it removed somehow).
  3. jcredberry Gochan Warlord

    You didn't understand me...

    The first time I tried to tap his Avatar during his upkeep he had it untapped.

    The second time, he had it tapped.

    Is there any difference between these cases??? I mean, is there any way that I can tap his Avatar during his upkeep without him replaying tapping it for the destruction of one of my creatures???
  4. K1 New Member

    I'm confused as well.

    If he has it tapped already, I don't see how he can destroy a creature.

    If you mean order of response, as in he taps it so its already tapped and then you respond, by saying you would like to tap it. But the destroy ability is already on the stack, which you can't prevent by tapping it. And if its untapped, and then you declare you want to tap it, he can tap it in response to you saying that to destroy a creature.

    Either way, something goes splat.
  5. Apollo Bird Boy

    Bottom line: the Avatar's going to kill something and you can't do squat about it :)
  6. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    If he taps the avatar, and in response I kill it, does it still go through?
  7. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I think I did understand you, you just didn't understand my answer :).

    The answer to your direct question is no, there is no way you can tap his Avatar without him tapping it to destroy something.

    The REASONING behind it (which was what I was trying to explain in my first post) is that he always has a chance to respond to effects.

    So if his Avatar is tapped already during upkeep, you can "tap" it again but since it's already tapped he can't do anything (presumably because he used it already. Why the heck would you want to tap an already tapped Avatar?)

    If his Avatar's untapped during his upkeep, you can tap it but in response he can tap it. Of course, since it's his upkeep he has priority so he may choose to tap it first anyway and YOU can choose to respond by "tapping" it again, but that just goes back to the scenario above of tapping an already tapped creature.

    The tapping of the Avatar is part of its cost which happens when you do it, maybe that's where the confusion is.

    Duel: Of course the ability still goes through. Killing the source doesn't stop the ability. :confused:
  8. jcredberry Gochan Warlord

    With all the info you'll sent to me on this thread, I have another question...

    What happens when someone is using Rishadan Ports... I mean, if he tries to tap my lands, can I tap them in response to get mana from them???
  9. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    Yes, because mana sources are the quickest. But that mana only stays there until the end of the phase. So if he does it during your upkeep, you can't spend it in your main phase.
  10. BigBlue Magic Jones

    not to beat a dead horse, but once an ability is paid for it is put on the stack and cannot be prevented(except with cards that specifically prevent abilities, ie rust, interdict.) Remember that Tapping, and Sacrificing when they are part of an activation cannot be prevented. That said . . .

    Duel is correct, if you want to use something which is being targeted, ie being tapped, disenchanted, whatever, you can use it before it gets affectected by putting it on the stack after it's targeted. remember though that in duels example if you tapped your mana in response to port during upkeep, you must use mana during upkeep, or you'll take mana burn at the end of upkeep.

    This is one of the toughest concepts in magic to grasp, i don't know how many times i have heard/gotten into this arguement before. usually when it involves an untapped Nevinyrral's Disk, and someone wants to disenchant it after it's untapped to prevent it going off. but that is another story. . .

    sorry for the long winded response.
  11. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    that's okay, we forgive you. As long as I'm right :)

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