Talk about Frustration>...

Discussion in 'Rules Questions' started by Neo_Keo, May 26, 2001.

  1. Neo_Keo -=[I]=- []2ice |Voodles

    I was playing with my oath deck and had a Morphling out.

    My opponent tried to snuff out my Morphling.

    Correct me if I am wrong but isn't target checked on announcement and resolution? He told me that it isn't like that anymore and that a judge told him that. I told him that is wrong according to my knowledge and a ruling like that would of been posted somewhere on the net.

    Please help me clarify this because I'm not 100% sure about my answer only 99.9999999% sure.
  2. Lotus Mox New Member

    you're right, you can pay U and make Morphling untargetable, and therefore counter Snuff Out upon resolution. I'm 100.00% sure :D

    Who was the judge? I know they can't be always right, but why they can't even understand really basic rules of the game is beyond me.
  3. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good

    You're right. All targetted spells, abilities, and effects check the legality of their targets on resolution and announcement. When you play a targetted ability or spell, you choose the target on announcement. You must choose a legal target, or the ability cannot be played. Then, as the ability prepares to resolve, it checks to make sure its target is still legal. If it has no legal targets, it doesn't work, and is countered on resolution.
  4. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    More likely is that your opponent just wanted to kill your Morphling, but what's the difference?

    Anyhow, everyone here is right, your Morphling has to be a legal target both when Snuff Out is announced and when it resolves, or it won't resolve at all.
  5. Neo_Keo -=[I]=- []2ice |Voodles

    Thanx guys :D I always trust the rulings you guys give out. My magic game has improved a lot thanx to the CPA maybe its because I started paying attention :D:D

    NEO
    Minister of War
  6. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Specifically, Rule 413.2a under Resolving Spells and Abilities says it checks whether targets are still legal.
  7. Neo_Keo -=[I]=- []2ice |Voodles

    During my upkeep I use oath of Druids ability. when the i reveal a Gaea's Blessing and then I reaveal a Morphling. When the Blessing is put into the graveyard with all the other cards will the gaea's blessing that I revealse from the Oath of Druids ability be shuffled into the Library with everything else or will it stay in the graveyard by itself.
  8. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Gaea's Blessing is triggered when it hits the graveyard from the library. So when it resolves, it is already in the graveyard and will be shuffled along with everything else in the graveyard into the library.
  9. terzarima New Member

    Hey, CT are you dissing us not-judges, but almost judging people, because then I might have to take a comprehensive rule book to your head :D
  10. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    It's actually sort of a long-running joke. It stems from the apparent fact (although it seems less common a problem nowadays) that despite having to pass a fairly challenging test on Magic rules, many judges seem to have a poor grasp of those rules.

    WotC Customer Service is another target of my disdain, and it's sad to say, but they have not improved much at all. Never ever call them with a rules question more complicated than, "What happens if I tap my Plains for mana?"

    As for non-judges, I'm included in that group, so I have only the greatest respect for them. ;)
  11. Neo_Keo -=[I]=- []2ice |Voodles

    The same guy that had the morphling problem just told me today that a LEVEL 4 Judge ruled that the snuff out will kill the morphling. He said that the morphlings ability must be used before the snuff out is targeted

    For the record Iknow this is wrong but this guy is all gung ho about it because a level 4 judge sided with him.

    Someone help me please waht can I do.

    Slam the Rule book in his face??????

    I know we have a DCI judge around here somewhere please send me and email about the ruling on this please. This guy is driving me nuts and the thoguht of him playing with other people and steering them on the wrong path is killing me. HELP!!!!!!!!

    P.S.

    This is a plee for help my email is NeoKeo@myexcel.com
  12. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    When he declares that he is going to play Snuff Out, he must:

    A) Pay the casting cost (4 life or the mana)
    and
    B) Select a target.

    This target must be announced when he plays the spell. Fast effects may then be played (for example, turning your Morphling untargetable). This renders your Morphling an illegal target.

    Any spell whose targets have all become illegal targets since declaration is countered.
    Any spell where one or more targets, but not all targets, have become illegal targets since declaration goes off, but only takes effect on those targets that are still legal.
    Any spell whose targets are all legal resolves normally.

    Let's provide an example.

    SITUATION: My opponent has two Morphlings out. I play Jagged Lightning (deals 3 damage to two targets).

    DILEMMA #1: My opponent doesn't activate either Morphling's untargetability.
    RESOLUTION #1: Jagged Lightning's targets are both still legal. Jagged Lightning resolves. Both of my opponent's Morphlings take 3 damage.

    DILEMMA #2: My opponent activates untargetability on only one of his Morphlings.
    RESOLUTION #2: Jagged Lightning still has one legal target. The untargetable Morphling takes no damage. The other Morphling takes 3 damage.

    DILEMMA #3: My opponent activates untargetability on both of his Morphlings.
    RESOLUTION #3: Jagged Lightning tries to resolve, but none of its targets are legal. Jagged Lightning is countered by the rules.

    As such, you are correct. When your opponent plays Snuff Out, he MUST select a target. You may then choose to activate untargetability on your Morphling. If that Morphling was his target, Snuff Out is countered by the rules (but he still pays its casting cost, whether it was the mana or the 4 life).

    And if you would be so kind, ask him the name of the judge that told him otherwise...then ask if your friend is sure he heard right. Having one's head up one's rear tends to muffle sound.
  13. Lotus Mox New Member

    G.38.4 - In addition to having a legal target when announced, a spell or ability checks its target to see if it is legal before it resolves. If its target is not legal, then the spell or ability does nothing with respect to that target. [CompRules 99/04/23]
    G.38.Ruling.1 - There are many ways to make a target illegal before resolution. The most common way is for the target to be destroyed, sent a player's hand, or otherwise removed from play prior to resolution. Other requirements on the targeting may be invalidated due to adding Protection (see Rule A.21) to a target creature. [D'Angelo 98/02/03]
  14. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    It looks like you're gonna need a copy of the rulebook to "try" to convince your opponent AND the level 4 judge (and I definitely would try to get the name of the judge and request a level 5 to look at it as this is highly questionable). And Rule 413.2a is also still good.
  15. EricBess Active Member

    My experience with "a judge said so" is that it is either an attempt to bully their ruling through or it is a complete misrepresentation of what the judge actually said. I've had people tell me, "Well, a level three said..." only to find out later that the context was somewhat different.

    For example, in this case, the opponent very likely had a Morphling in play when someone killed an Academy Rector and stole the Morphling with Confiscate. He misunderstood what the judge told him and has been attempting to misplay it ever since.

    I'm not saying you shouldn't follow up on it, I'm just saying that the odds are, the judge "responsible" was completely correct in what he said.
  16. Neo_Keo -=[I]=- []2ice |Voodles

    Thanx Guys I found Paul Barclay's Email addy and had emailed him and received the evidence I needed to convince my opponent that he is wrong.

    I was pretty much sure that the judge was either tired from the prerelease ( probably mixed up those pesky flagbearers and morphling by mistake, tomany targeting questions nowadays, LOL ) I wouldn't belive a level 4 judge there for a minute would ge that wrong.

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