Ransac #70

Discussion in 'Rules Questions' started by train, Nov 26, 2002.

  1. train The Wildcard!!!...

    My opponent controls an Astral Slide. I control a Lightning Rift. My opponent has a Mystic Snake in play. I decide to cycle a Krosan Tusker during his combat step, after the snake is declared as an attacker. My opponent then tries to remove his snake from the game, but I want to Lightning rift it, can I do this before he removes it, sending it to the graveyard instead?

    Lightning Rift
    Color= Red Type= Enchantment Cost= 1R ON(U)
    Text (ON): Whenever a player cycles a card, you may pay {1}. If you do, ~this~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.

    Astral Slide
    Color= White Type= Enchantment Cost= 2W ON(U)
    Text (ON): Whenever a player cycles a card, you may remove target creature from the game. If you do, return that creature to play under its owner's control at end of turn.

    Krosan Tusker
    Color= Green Type= Creature - Beast Cost= 5GG ON(C)
    Text (ON): 6/5. ; Cycling {2}{G}. ; When you cycle ~this~, you may search your library for a basic land card, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.

    Mystic Snake
    Color= Multi Type= Creature - Snake Cost= 1GUU AP(R)
    Text (AP): 2/2. ; You may play ~this~ any time you could play an instantt. When ~this~ comes into play, counter target spell.
  2. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    Both his Astral Slide and your Lightning Rift triggered on you cycling the Tusker. By APNAP, the Slide's ability will go on the stack and then the Lightning Rift. The Rift's ability will resolve and you pay 1 to destroy the Snake. The Slide's ability will resolve and nothing happens.

    (- Steve -)
  3. Ransac CPA Trash Man

    Hmm, I'm going to brush up on timing rules before I give a specific answer on this one, but I don't think you can because, since it's your turn, the Lightning Rift goes on the stack first, followed by the Astral Slide. The slide would resolve first, removing the snake from the game before your rift gets a chance.


    But, like I said, I'm not sure on this one.


    Ransac, cpa trash man
  4. train The Wildcard!!!...

    *Hint, Hint*

    It's not your turn...;)
  5. EricBess Active Member

    The answer to this question is very straight forward. APNAP for the triggers. Unfortunately, for some reason, it is a really tough one for most players to grasp without someone explaining it to them.

    At Oregon States, we had several mirror matches come up and most of the time, I ended up just letting players play it out however they both agreed to. Why? Because most of the situations where it came up, my getting involved and making sure it was done properly would have effectively involved coaching. So, as long as nothing that couldn't be a correct result wasn't done, I didn't get involved unless I was asked.

    There was a mirror match in the finals. I was table judging that one, so as soon as a card was cycled, I made sure that all of the steps were followed exactly.

    The answer to the specific question is that the Snake will end up dead.

    Now, here's a follow up. Suppose I have 4 mana availible with just the Rift in play. I tap 3 mana to cycle the Tusker and I have Lightning Rift target the Snake.

    Can my opponent rescue his Snake by cycling another card (or cards) in response?
  6. train The Wildcard!!!...

    hmmm...

    I think yes...

    The only thing I see stopping this from occurring is if the rift happens immediately... but I think it has to wait... i believe that even though the stack is created, It returns to APNAP order... so the opponent has priority before anything begins resolving...

    This is how I see it...

    Tusker(cycle) resolve

    Slide trigger(snake)
    Rift trigger - you pay the 1 here - your targeting snake...

    Opponent cycle - resolves...
    slide trigger(snake)
    rift trigger - you don't have open mana
    ------------------
    so rift fades off stack doing nothing...
    slide removes snake from game...

    1st rift comes looking for snake... does nothing
    original slide... does nothing...

    That's how I figure it...
    :)
  7. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    Minor nitpick: The Slide and the Rift's abilities go on the stack before the cycling resolves because it triggers when you cycle a card and the triggers will go on the stack before the ability resolves.

    To answer the question: Since Eric didn't explicitly say that there is a Slide in play, your opponent can't save the Snake unless he cycles a Sunfire Balm. But let's assume that there is an Astral Slide in play and it's controlled by my opponent. Let's also assume that I control the Rift and it is my turn. Let's also assume that both me and my opponent can only cycle once.

    I cycle the Tusker. It goes on the stack. Then the Rift and the Slide trigger. By APNAP, the ability of my Lightning Rift will be put on the stack first and then the Slide's ability. The Slide will resolve first and take the Snake from the game.

    If it is my opponent's turn, then the Slide will go on the stack first and then the Rift. The Rift will resolve and I kill the Snake. Then the Slide resolves and does nothing.

    In conclusion:
    1) If it is my turn, the Snake will live.
    2) If it is my opponent's turn, the Snake will die.

    (- Steve -)
  8. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I think yes, because both Rift and Slide trigger and the Slide goes on the stack first since it's controlled by the Active Player and then the Rift. So the Rift will resolve first, killing the Snake.
  9. EricBess Active Member

    JP,

    I was expanding train's question. As such, your opponent has an Astral Slide in play and it is during his combat phase.

    You cycle the Tusker with 1 more mana availible. Slide goes on the stack, targetting Snake, then Rift goes on the stack, targetting Snake.

    So, do you agree with train's assessment that he can save the Snake simply by cycling another card in response?

    Why or why not?
  10. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    Ok, sorry. I misunderstood the question.

    I don't agree with train's assessment. When I cycle my Tusker, the "draw a card" is placed on the stack (not really relevant) and then by APNAP, the Slide (targeting Snake) and then the Lightning Rift (targeting Snake). By 410.5, I don't pay the {1} until the Rift's ability resolves.

    410.5. Some triggered abilities' effects are optional (they contain "may," as in "At the beginning of your upkeep, you may draw a card"). These abilities go on the stack when they trigger, regardless of whether their controller intends to exercise the ability's option or not. (The choice is made when the ability resolves.) Likewise, triggered abilities that have an effect "unless" something is true or a player chooses to do something will go on the stack normally; the "unless" part of the ability is dealt with when the ability resolves.

    So the stack will look like this:

    Rift (targeting Snake)
    Slide (targeting Snake)
    Draw a card (nobody really cares)

    If my opponent now cycles, the "draw a card" goes on the stack (nobody cares) and by APNAP, the Slide (targeting Snake) and the Rift (targeting Snake). So the stack looks like this:

    Rift (targeting Snake)
    Slide (targeting Snake)
    Draw a card (my opponent)
    Rift (targeting Snake)
    Slide (targeting Snake)
    Draw a card (me)

    My opponent can continue to cycle until he runs out of cards or mana or doesn't feel like wasting any more time on a futile effort. When one of the Rift abilities resolve, I will pay the {1} and kill the Snake. All other Rift and Slide abilities will do nothing.

    (- Steve -)
  11. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Since the Rift is targeting the snake hasn't the 1 already been paid???...

    So my stack was out of order....:rolleyes:

    All I know is if you have targeted, i believe the opponent can save it by cycling again...
  12. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    No. By 410.5, you don't pay the {1} until the ability resolves. If your opponent cycles a card again, it triggers the Slide and the Rift again. The Rift will always go on the stack last and therefore resolve first because it is controlled by the non-active player.

    (- Steve -)
  13. train The Wildcard!!!...

    So you can target the snake before the resolution...

    EB said he targeted the snake...

    :confused:
  14. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    By 410.4, you make all required choices for a triggered ability when it goes on the stack (such as choosing the target). And by 410.5, you would choose to pay {1} and deal damage or choose not to pay and do nothing.

    410.4. When a triggered ability goes on the stack, the controller of the pseudospell makes all required choices, following the rules for activated abilities (see rule 409, "Playing Spells and Activated Abilities"). If no legal choice can be made (or if a rule or a continuous effect otherwise makes the ability illegal), the pseudospell is simply removed from the stack.

    410.5. Some triggered abilities' effects are optional (they contain "may," as in "At the beginning of your upkeep, you may draw a card"). These abilities go on the stack when they trigger, regardless of whether their controller intends to exercise the ability's option or not. (The choice is made when the ability resolves.) Likewise, triggered abilities that have an effect "unless" something is true or a player chooses to do something will go on the stack normally; the "unless" part of the ability is dealt with when the ability resolves.

    (- Steve -)
  15. EricBess Active Member

    It's really quite simple, train. There is one simple piece to the puzzle that you are missing. You don't pay 1 for the Rift until it resolves.

    So, when I put Rift on the stack and target Snake, I don't pay any mana to do so. When my opponent cycles in response, I again target Snake with the Rift. I can do that as many times as he cycles.

    Eventually, an occurance of my Rift will resolve prior to any occurances of his Slide. When it does, I choose to pay one and the Snake takes 2 damage and dies. All other Rift and Slide abilities are countered on resolution because the Snake is no longer in play.
  16. train The Wildcard!!!...

    With as direct as I take words... I should be a lawyer... I could tear witnesses apart...

    *I didn't say a good one...

    By that understanding... no, your opponent could not save the snake...

    *Fizzle... that's my new ordeal... happy retirement Coat!!!...*

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