Ransac #51

Discussion in 'Rules Questions' started by train, Oct 15, 2002.

  1. train The Wildcard!!!...

    My opponent has a Powder Keg with 3 counters
    and I have a Smokestack with 2 counters...
    Can my opponent add a counter to the keg and blow it destroying the smokestack before sacrificing 2 of his permanents?


    Powder Keg
    Color= Artifact Type= Artifact Cost= 2 UD(R)
    Text (UD): At the beginning of your upkeep, you may put a fuse counter on ~this~. ; {Tap},Sacrifice ~this~: Destroy each artifact and creature with converted mana cost equal to the number of fuse counters on ~this~.

    Smokestack
    Color= Artifact Type= Artifact Cost= 4 US(R)
    Text (US+errata): At the beginning of your upkeep, you may put a soot counter on ~this~. ; At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player sacrifices a permanent for each soot counter on ~this~. [Oracle 1999/05/01]
  2. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    No, because you still have to put the Smokestack's ability on the stack and it'll use the last known information to calculate how many soot counters were on it when it resolves.
  3. EricBess Active Member

    Nice try, Spidey, but there is something a bit more fundamental going on here. BTW, what you said is basically true if there were already 4 counters on Powder Keg, but that's not the question that was asked :D
  4. Ransac CPA Trash Man

    No, before you can respond to anything, all of the effects have been placed on the stack, so you must sac two permanents.


    Ransac, cpa trash man
  5. BigBlue Magic Jones

    Yes, he can, however he will have to sacrifice 2 perms.

    Beginning of upkeep:
    Put smokestack effect on stack. (sacrifice 2 permanents)
    Put Keg fuse counter effect on stack.
    Let the Keg resolve.
    Activate the keg -> destroy all artifacts and creatures with cost 4.
    resolve the destruction -> which includes the smokestack.
    resolve the smokestack effect (sacrifice 2 permanents).

    Now, if you had any other creatures or artifacts which had cost 4, you'd want to switch that ordering of those two beginning of upkeep events (to allow you to sac them before you made them go away with the keg).
  6. BigBlue Magic Jones

    note: The tricky way the question was worded...

    It didn't say he was trying to avoid sacrifice, just whether he could use the keg beforehand...
  7. EricBess Active Member

    The question was:

    Is everyone forgetting their APNAP rules?
  8. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    So what you're saying is that the Powder Keg effects have to stack first because they're AP effects and then the Smokestack since it's NAP. And since it's on the stack last, it'll resolve first, blowing up two permanents before any Keg effects are resolved.
  9. EricBess Active Member

    That's what I'm saying. You can pop the Keg before having to sacrifice two permanents, but you cannot pop it with 4 counters on it if you do so.

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