Ransac #42

Discussion in 'Rules Questions' started by train, Oct 9, 2002.

  1. Lotus Mox New Member

    What if there are multiple Saproling Bursts in play, one with 4 fading counters, one with 0?
    It isn't clear from the rules text alone which one the copies refer to.
  2. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    But since each token knows what Burst it came from (see my post from 10/9 or check crystalkeep), I'm assuming that the copy copies this "link" or implicit rules text also.
  3. train The Wildcard!!!...

    The copy will follow the link to the appropriate burst... This would be where grouping the tokens according to which burst created them would be necessary... It's similar to tracking the order in which morphed creatures have come into play...

    And you couldn't copy tokens belonging to a burst with 0 tokens - the creatures would die - they're 0/0's... so there shouldn't be any tokens, unless a p/t booster was in play, but they'd be destroyed next upkeep anyway...
  4. Lotus Mox New Member

    Rule 503.2 doesn't state anything about that, sure the copies have the whole "these tokens have p/t equal to Saproling Burst's fading counters" text, but it is not said that they have the knowledge of which Sap. Burst they (or the tokens they copied) came from.

    Well, Rune Horvik said that they know it, but I don't know if this is the official ruling yet.
  5. train The Wildcard!!!...

    LM - a ruling has already been made saying the know where they came from(my prev. post)... That is probably why Rune said thay would link to the burst creating the token they were copied from...

    They have to check somewhere - inherently, they check where the original token checks...
  6. Lotus Mox New Member

    a hypothetical question about a hypothetical card:

    Saproling G
    Creature - Saproling
    Saproling's power and toughness are each equal to the number of fade counters on Saproling Burst.

    What would happen when I play this and there's a Saproling Burst with some counters in play?
  7. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Well - it wouldn't die while coming into play, if that's what you're talking about...

    But once the fade counters are gone from the burst - it would die, unless there was a p/t booster in play... like Mirari's wake...
  8. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I also assume that through playtesting some things would be finalized, such as making the Burst a Legend or something so that there wouldn't be confusion as to which Burst your hypothetical card refers to (which I assume is the point of the card). That's why currently there is a ruling that the token know which Burst they link to.
  9. EricBess Active Member

    Interesting. Assuming there was a toughness booster in play, the token itself has the ability "<this> has p/t equal to the number of counters on Saporling Burst" and it knows which Saporling Burst put it into play.

    So, what Rune said is that in copying this rules text, it copies which Burst it is "pointing" to.

    However, that Burst didn't put it into play. So, when the Burst leaves play, all of the "real" Saporlings will be destroyed, but it is the Burst destroying them, not the text of the Saporling, so the copied Saporlings would NOT be destroyed.
  10. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Correct - because the burst *targets* tokens it created...
  11. EricBess Active Member

    Better to say it *selects* tokens it created. If it targetted, you could save the token by making it pro:green. :D
  12. train The Wildcard!!!...

    I was at a loss for words... that's why I asterisked the word targets....;)
  13. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    Well, this comes in a bit late.

    To Spidey: That is rules text. But as Lotus Mox said, they don't have the knowledge of what Saproling Burst they came from. IMO, Rune's answer can't be supported by the Comp Rules.

    (- Steve -)
  14. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Which doesn't have knowledge? The original token or the copied token?

    If it's the original, it does, it says it right with the Burst on crystalkeep.

    If it's the copy, then I don't understand why you think the above isn't copied if its part of the rules text.
  15. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    I can't explain it any more than LM and I already have, Spidey. I disagree with Rune's answer and it's not supported by the Comp. Rules.

    I'm done posting on this thread. train, you need to post some new questions so we can talk about something new.

    (- Steve -)
  16. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    This sure is hard without talking face-to-face...

    So looking back through the thread, it seems that your question is why the link of how each token knows what Burst it comes from is considered rules text, correct?

    Perhaps it's a bit of a stretch since it isn't defined per se in the rules that way, but that's why rules get revised, right? :)
  17. train The Wildcard!!!...

    You mean you all want more questions.... here we go... let me get some rolling...:cool:
  18. EricBess Active Member

    Yeah we want more. A bit fewer each day, perhaps, but keep them coming.

    And JP, like I said originally, I'm with you on how I think it makes more sense. But at the same time, I could see it going either way, which is why I checked with Rune. Personally, I don't think the Comp Rules support either answer.

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