Ransac #42

Discussion in 'Rules Questions' started by train, Oct 9, 2002.

  1. train The Wildcard!!!...

    I have a Saproling Burst in play. I remove 3 counters, making 3 4/4 saprolings. If I play Parallel Evolution will all my tokens die to fading.(Explain).

    Saproling Burst
    Color= Green Type= Enchantment Cost= 4G NE(R)
    Text (NE): Fading 7. ; Remove a fade counter from ~this~: Put a green Saproling creature token into play. It has "This creature's power and toughness are each equal to the number of fade counters on Saproling Burst." ; When ~this~ leaves play, destroy all tokens put into play with ~this~. They can't be regenerated.

    Parallel Evolution
    Color= Green Type= Sorcery Cost= 3GG TO(R)
    Text (TO): Flashback {4}{G}{G}{G}. ; For each creature token in play, its controller puts a creature token into play that's a copy of that creature.
  2. Lotus Mox New Member

    I'd say they die because there's no saproling Burst they can refer to. (I don't think that's copied too)
  3. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    No, only the three original Saprolings will die because the other three were put into play from Evolution, not by the Burst, so they're not subject to the Burst's Leave Play effect.

    Edit after looking: Oh darn it, they do die because they still refer to the number of fading counters on the Burst for the toughness. Drat, drat, drat.
  4. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Hint - rules for copies...
  5. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I don't see anything in the copy section that would contradict Lotus Mox and myself; most of those rules pertain to actual copy cards like Cline and Vesuvan Doppleganger. :confused:
  6. BigBlue Magic Jones

    I'm going to say no. Since the copies weren't put into play using Burst (and that aspect is not copied, copies include color, abilities, Converted Cost? and power/toughness)
  7. train The Wildcard!!!...

    503.2. When copying a permanent, the copy acquires the printed values of the name, mana cost, color, type and subtype, expansion symbol, rules text, power, and toughness of the permanent being copied. Also, if the copied permanent was printed as legendary or as an enchant world, this is copied as well. Effects (including type-changing effects) and counters are not copied. (The exception is that copy effects are themselves copied; see rule 503.3.)

    The copies copy the rules text granted to the originals by the Saproling Burst... so each copy has- "This creature's power and toughness are each equal to the number of fade counters on Saproling Burst."

    The hint was just to help people search the rules, It doesn't contradict what you all said...... We're working on rues here, rules... for Ransac and some of us too!...
  8. EricBess Active Member

    The question, however, still stands. Do the copies know which Saporling Burst is being referred to by their own ability? Since they were not put into play by Saporline Burst, my inclination is to say that no, they don't, which would indicate that they would die immediately and not wait until the fade counters are removed.

    However, I think I would like to kick this to the judge list first.
  9. Lotus Mox New Member

    oops, I thought the question was what will happen with the created tokens, not what will happen after the fading :eek:

    *hopes his answer makes more sense now*
  10. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    train: Oh. Since Lotus Mox and my answer agreed and you threw that hint in, I thought you were saying we were wrong and to look up the copy rules.

    From Saproling Burst:

    I conclude that the copy token copies "this link" also and knows it's dependent on the certain Saproling Burst also.
  11. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    I don't agree. The copy of the token only copies the name, mana cost, color, type and subtype, expansion symbol, rules text, power, and toughness, unless otherwise specified. It doesn't copy anything that's not on this list, including what permanent created the original token that is being copied.

    (- Steve -)
  12. Ransac CPA Trash Man

    Yes, because Evo the tokens become copies of the Burst tokens, which read "This creature's blah, blah, blah, etc.". Therefore, they have power and toughness equal to the S. Burst's fading counters.

    Ransac, cpa trash man
  13. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Puff, in copying the rules text, the tokens inherit the checking of the original tokens creator, this link grants their P/T until all the fade counters are removed, but we can see what EB gets from the judges list if you like...

    The last line on Saproling burst is there in case an effect like Mirari's Wake is in play... but the tokens will die to fading becaue their p/t will then be 0/0.
  14. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    Why should the tokens inherit the "link" to their original Saproling Burst? They only copy the characteristics listed. When the copied tokens check to see what their power/toughness is, why should they say "Oh, well, I'm a copy of that there token and that there token came from that there Saproling Burst and that there Saproling Burst has 3 fade counters on it."? The tokens can only say, "Well, what Saproling Burst did I come from? Oh, I didn't come from any Saproling Burst."

    (- Steve -)
  15. EricBess Active Member

    Got a reply from Rune (the judge's net rep).

    According to him, we should treat the "link" to the card as part of the rules text, so it (the copy) will "remember" which Saporling Burst "created" it.
  16. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    Fine. Whatever.

    Did Rune give a reason for this or did he just pull it out of his hat?

    (- Steve -)
  17. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    I wonder what the other NetReps think?

    I sense a Rules Team ruling coming... in like a year. :p
  18. EricBess Active Member

    I got an email from him. Let me look...

    Well, he doesn't go into a lot of detail. Basically, as I mentioned previously, it could make sense either way. Since the other net reps haven't disagreed with him yet, they are either contemplating it, or they agree with it, at least enough to not shake things up by disagreeing anyway. There may yet be a rules team ruling, but for now, it stands.

    The effective basis for his ruling is how he believes this sort of thing would work online. The tokens would have a pointer back to the original card, and the copy would copy this pointer.

    The appropriate cards are not to be found online (Burst anyway), so unless someone can think of a similar situation to try online, we won't be able to actually test to see how online really would deal with it. It would probably crash the whole system :D
  19. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Jigglypuff: Why wouldn't "This creature's power and toughness are each equal to the number of fade counters on Saproling Burst." be considered as rules text? And if it is, why wouldn't the link be known to the copy card if it's known to the original card? Is it because the copy rules don't specifically state that "links" are copied and links aren't considered rules text?
  20. train The Wildcard!!!...

    I believe this is rules text...

    In the bottom right of the token(card) it looks like this:

    where * = the number of fade counters on saproling burst...

    It works just like the Vores in Odyssey block - it has to check somewhere... If it didn't, the tokens would die when they're created... Thus it links to the saproling burst... where it can check to determine the p/t characteristics...

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