Question about static effects

Discussion in 'Rules Questions' started by Spiderman, Aug 14, 2008.

  1. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I've got a creature with Wither enchanted with Gift of the Deity, which gives deathtouch and lure. If I cast Snakeform on the creature (Target creature loses all abilities and becomes a 1/1 Snake ueot), does the creature just lose the inherent Wither ability or also the abilities granted by the enchantment ueot?
  2. DarthFerret Evil Sith Weasel

    I believe that you would have a 1/1 snake that was enchanted with Gift of the Deity. This should be similar to the old Sorceress Queen issue. If the p/t on the card is changed to 0/2 by the queen, any counters or enchantments are still active, starting with the base of 0/2 instead of the original P/T.

    Same thing as if you cast Humble on my Thicket Basalisk, and then I cast flying on him. He would be a 0/1 flying creature with no other abilities.
  3. Modus Pwnens Eligible for User Title

    It's a bit more complicated than that.

    The problem is that Snakeform doesn't just set power and toughness, but also removes all abilities.

    What happens is that effects within the same layer are applied in timestamp order, so first the creature gains lure/deathtouch from the gifts, then it's made green and it loses all abilities.
    When we come to the P/T layer, Snakeform makes it 1/1 first, then it gets +1/+1 from the green half of the gifts.

    The result will be a 2/2 Snake creature, without abilities.

    The trick is that if the creature wasn't green (say, black), we have a dependency.
    Because the snakeform changes how the gifts works, the Snakeform effect is applied first, making it a 1/1 Snake without abilities. Then Gifts grants it the lure effect.
    Then of course it still gets the +1/+1 bonus.

    So, Snakeform plus green aura in short:
    On a green creature: 2/2 Snake without abilities
    On a non-green creature: 2/2 Snake with the green aura's effect.
  4. Shabbaman insert avatar here

    Somehow it would make sense to me if aura's are in a higher layer than the printed abilities of the creature card.
  5. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    The creature is a black AND green creature, so it's currently getting both benefits from the Gifts.

    So I'm confused by Modus's explanation... why would the +1/+1 be granted when it becomes only a green creature and not the Lure? Or in other words, why does one part of the enchantment still apply and not both?

    I was thinking kinda like DF; either the Snakeform changes the base P/T and removes the inherent Wither ability but the Gifts still apply (the green part) or the Snakeform overrides the entire enchanted creature ueot, Gifts and all, and it becomes just a green 1/1 Snake.
  6. Modus Pwnens Eligible for User Title

    That's the trick with layers, it gets complicated with dependencies (or when humility is involved :D).

    The +1/+1 is always applied (if the aura is partially green), because it's in a higher sublayer.
    The ability it gets (lure) is applied in layer 5. If we take a look at this layer, we see the following effects (in timestamp order).

    Layer 5 (other effects)
    *if ~ is green, it has lure
    *~ becomes green and loses all abilities until end of turn.

    As you can see, the first effect depends on the second ability if the creature isn't green, but not if the creature is already green.

    If it's already green, we can simply apply both effects in timestamp order, resulting in a 2/2 green creature without abilities.

    If the creature wasn't green, the second effect changes how the first would be applied, and therefore the first is said to depend on the second. Because of this, we apply the second effect first (ignoring timestamps), and then the second.
    What we get is a creature which first loses all abilities and becomes green, then is granted lure (because it's green now).

    Regardless of whether the creature is green or not, when we get to layer 6, it will become 1/1 in sublayer 6b, then gets the +1/+1 from the aura in layer 6d.
  7. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Okay, so because the creature is already green (and black), it already has lure fromn the Gifts. So the Snakeform overrides it even though it "keeps" the color green - the color doesn't change, so the Lure had already been applied. It loses deathtouch because it's no longer black.

    If the creature had been just black, the color change means Gifts looks at it and says "hey, now you're green, so you get lure".

    Right?

    So in my specific example, the green and black creature which had Wither (inherent), Lure and Deathtouch (from Gifts) becomes a 2/2 green Snake with no abilities.
  8. BigBlue Magic Jones

    It's questions like these which make me glad I'm not a judge any longer... :)

    (* BigBlue gets out his JackHammer of Dooooooom and demolishes all "layers, Sub-layers, and other strata" *) :)
  9. Modus Pwnens Eligible for User Title

    Yes Spidey, that's right, although it's more "Gifts looks at it and says: 'hey, if you become green first, I do some stuff to you, so let's make you green first!' and then gives it lure" :)
  10. mythosx Legendary Creature-Human

    I'd like to weigh in on this. According to most of the newer articles I've read. I believe this falls under the same problem as humility. When two competing effects are in play at the same time. First rule of thumb is the one that says "can't" or other comparative negative wins out. If something says can't untap and another things say can. The can't wins out. If it's something similar to humility where there is no clear negative, then the time stamp rule applies. Which ever came first is subservient to what ever comes after it. So in this case I believe the creature would be a 1/1 with out abilities.
  11. Modus Pwnens Eligible for User Title

    No, I'm afraid I'll have to correct you there. The "can't-rule" only dictates what effects can and cannot do. For example, if an enchantment says "players can't gain life", and a player plays a spell which says "you gain 5 life", that player will not gain any life, because the "can't-effect" wins here.

    When we look at layers we do the following things.
    First, we apply characteristic-defining abilities.
    Then we look if any effects depend-on each other. An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect; (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.
    We normally apply all effects in timestamp order, with the exception of an effect that depends on another. If this is the case, the dependent effect "waits" to apply until the effect it depends on has been applied.

    There are some excellent articles written on the subject, try reading this or this
  12. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Wow. I actually never heard of "layers" before... good links.
  13. mythosx Legendary Creature-Human

    thanks for the links. I'll get on them when I have more time.
  14. BigBlue Magic Jones

    So Donkey....

    Magic is like Shrek.... It has Layers...
  15. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    No, no, it's like an onion... and it also makes you cry when you peel back the layers :D
  16. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Onions don't seem to make me cry. They do make my mouth water, though.
  17. DarthFerret Evil Sith Weasel

    What about parfaits?...Everybody likes parfaits!....Have you ever talked to somebody and heard them say -"parfaits, no thanks, I don't really like parfaits"?
  18. BigBlue Magic Jones

    "Get the Milk."
    "You're a Monster!"

    - one of my favorite scenes in the whole movie...
  19. EricBess Active Member

    "Not my gumdrop buttons..."
  20. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

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