Problem at a draft

Accept the judges decision?

  • Yes and go quietly into that good night

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No and go to my Palm and get the latest rules

    Votes: 1 50.0%
  • Maybe a differnet solution

    Votes: 1 50.0%

  • Total voters
    2
R

rkoelsch

Guest
I was going to post this in the rules section but I think the answer is evident and this is really about the correct protocol for the situation. I was at a draft last Friday. First time I had played in 2 months. I felt okay with my draft and had won 1st game of a match. 2nd game I had paris'd down to 5 and was in a bad way
but he had no early pressure so I was fighting back. I had cast Rith's Attendant the previous turn and was attacking

Rith's Attendant
Color=Artifact Type=Artifact Creature - Golem Cost=5 IN(U)
Text(IN): 3/3. ; {1},Sacrifice ~this~: Add {R}{G}{W} to your mana pool.

My opponent cast dismantling blow with kicker. I was at 20 life he was at 14 so I told him I would pay 1 and sac the attendant for mana. He had already drawn the cards because he drew them as soon as he played the spell.

Dismantling Blow
Color=White Type=Instant Cost=2W IN(C)
Text(IN): Kicker {2}{U} (You may pay an additional {2}{U} as you play this spell.) ; Destroy target artifact or enchantment. ; If you paid the kicker cost, draw two cards.

If the target is not legal on resolution, the spell is countered and you do not get to draw the two cards. [D'Angelo 2001/03/12]
Note - Also see Kicker, Rule A.20


I told him my saccing the attendant countered his spell and he couldn't draw the cards. He called over the guy who we were using as a judge. This guy is a local guru who has gone to a couple PTQ's. He stuck with my opponent but I got the feeling that he knew it was wrong but wanted to keep this guy appeased. I am a pretty easy going person. I bring these casual decks that are almost good if they had a few more rares. My opponent is this creep who has all the good cards but always makes some bad plays. He kept both our life totals and several times we differed on what mine was.

So my question is should I have made a stink or do what I did accept the judges ruling and lose?
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Was there any judge who ranked higher (like a head judge)? If so, perhaps you could have "appealed" (or whatever) to him.

If not, I don't know WHAT you could have done. I'm not familiar enough with tourney situations on what you can do in cases like this.
 
R

rkoelsch

Guest
Unfortunately this is just a group of guys drafting. We had 6 guys who decided to draft after the tourney friday. So there is no real structure. If it was a tournament I would have appealed to the head judge and I would have gotten my proof. but in supposedly friendly games like this there is little recourse.
 
H

Hetemti

Guest
Unless he's got the Zebra shirt, and there's noöne above him, you beat his head in with rulings.

If I were the judge, your opponent broke protocol. He resolved the spell without passing priority. He also looked at cards in his deck without warrant. Just the peeking alone is a game loss, if I remember with validity. Perhaps you should go to Starcity and Ask Sheldon.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
So this was a side type draft, with nothing affecting rankings or anything?

If so, you probably just have to know "in your heart" that you might not have lost. Either that or go serious and get out your Palm Pilot.

If it did affect your rankings, go serious all the way.
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
Bleh. If it was a side event you lost maybe 2 ranking points.
Thats 2.
1 more than 1.
ie. Not worth bothering about.

Basically what you should do is try to convince the judge. If he doesnt agree you are bound to go along with the judge`s decision, right or wrong. Every game/sport sees judges making bad calls, they are only human after all.
 
Z

Zadok001

Guest
Obviously the gained card advantage sets the game off the balance it should maintain. At a high-level event, that would probably be a game loss, since it can't be undone realistically (shuffle back in, perhaps?). But at a side draft...? Ericbess?
 
D

Duel

Guest
*grins* ahh, that's NOTHING. I remember playing a guy right before 7th came in. He claimed that when he attacked with river boa, and I shocked it, and her regenerated, not only was it untapped, but damage was still dealt. You either back yourself up, or go on with life.

-Duel, once called a cheater for claiming Carniverous plant couldn't attack (It's not a wall, it's a plant, right?)
 
E

EricBess

Guest
Normally, I don't frequent this particular forum, but I guess my ears were burning.

rkoelsch - you were robbed. Plain and simple. Either the judge didn't understand the situation or he didn't consider it a big enough event to warrent his full attention. Of course, I am accepting you at face value that there wasn't more going on here like an implied acceptance of the spell.

Anyway, what can you do about it? Not much. Basically, everyone has pretty much summed it up already. The judge is the final recourse. If there is a head judge, appeal. If not, suck it up.

Next time, make sure you have the judge's attention and that he realizes what is happening. I can't imagine a judge that would misrule that particular scenario unless your opponent was arguing that you had allowed the spell to resolve. Then it comes down to he said, he said.

At a higher level event, it would be either looking at extra cards or drawing extra cards. Mostly, this would depend on whether or not the players were in agreement as to which cards were the ones drawn. In most cases, it would be a warning. In high enough events, or if he obviously put the cards in his hand and it is not possible to tell which cards they were, it might be a game loss because you cannot accurately determine what the game state was.

The only real suggestion I have is make sure your opponent knows you have a response or that you are at least thinking of responding. Call the judge over immediately. If anyone else saw what happened, they can back up your story.
 
E

EricBess

Guest
One other thing. I doubt this will do you much good at a simple side draft, but if, as you say, your opponent was a friend of the judge, pay attention to that. You could email WotC, but I doubt it would do you much good with such a small tourney. Still, a good judge doesn't let his knowledge of player affect his rulings. Make sure you are very clear about what happened before doing something like this, though.
 

Ransac

CPA Trash Man
Hey, it sucks, but life goes on.

*The rest of the CPA frowns at Ransac for repeating what everybody else has been saying.*


On a side note, I thought Carnivorous plant has always been a wall. If not, why would Erhnam Djinn be played over that? They ARE the same casting cost.


Ransac, cpa trash man
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, but for new people who came in and didn't read the rulebook, it's just a creature to them. That's kinda why WOTC started putting "reminder text" about walls in Tempest (at least, maybe earlier?)

Anyway, just thinking out loud here, it's my impression that there isn't a recourse for "bad officiating", whether it be in Magic or sports in general or whatever. I know in established sports you can't really "replay" the play (except in American football where they have "contest the ruling" type of thing now), but shouldn't there be some incentive to keep refs "on the ball"? Nothing really major (unless they really blow a play), but perhaps after the game, when someone lodges a protest on the judging, if the judge/ref is found in the wrong, there should be some penalty? And conversely, if they're in the right, the accuser should pay something?

Or is this just futile? :)
 
W

Wonka

Guest
It happeneds sometimes. Lucky for me we got like 3 judges at my local card store. They are pretty good. Yes you are right. If you sacked it in response the player can not draw the cards. Becuase he has to have a target. If there is no target it fizzles. It sucks that you got screwed didn't it.
 
A

Apollo

Guest
This is just the kind of guy I am, but I would have made a huge stink over it. You got screwed, plain and simple, especially if (as you say) you think he knew the correct ruling. Dig out your palm pilot/reams of rulings and show him right there what the call should have been. Any time you are playing in a tournament with a prize on the line or where you paid admission, you owe it to yourself to get this straightened out.

Not that it really matters, but I have always felt that officials in most sports need something to encourage them to make sure they get it right. Especially in baseball, where you see so many cases of umps just not trying, or throwing people out for no reason. I saw one kick a bat and the little 6-year old kid who was a batboy after an argument with a player. An official in one sport (can't remember) was even quoted as saying "You didn't like that call? Well, wait till you see the next one!"

But why would they bother trying? Most referees' unions (not Magic, of course), are so tough that they can get officials rehired even if they quit (which actually happened in baseball).
 
J

John`O

Guest
If that guy is accepted as the rules guru / judge you have
to go with his ruling.

Now you have to decide if it was a genuine misake or
if they were cheating you.
If it's deliberate then there's not really much you can do
other than find different people to play with.
If it's a mistake then print out the appropriate ruling
that you quoted and next time you see the rules guy
take him to one side and quietly explain why he was wrong.
Don't tell him that in front of anyone else
because that will probably upset him.


John
 
I

Istanbul

Guest
First of all...you did indeed get screwed.

Dismantling Blow (with or without kicker, doesn't matter) goes on the stack.
Your playing an instant-speed ability (saccing Rith's Attendant) goes on the stack in response.
Neither player has any more fast effects.
The stack begins to resolve.
Rith's Attendant is sacrificed, adding WGR to your mana pool.
Dismantling Blow looks for its target...can't find it...and is countered by the rules. Your opponent draws 0 cards, as Dismantling Blow was not successfully cast.

I suggest that you look up the appropriate ruling and take the judge aside, explaining the ruling to him.

If he then does it AGAIN, I suggest you remind him about the DismantlingBlow/Rith'sAttendant situation.
If he insists, I suggest you find a new playgroup; the rules shouldn't be broken just to keep someone happy.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
I don't think it's a matter of whether the judge was wrong; rkoelsch pretty much says that the judge knew he was wrong but wanted to keep his opponent "appeased" (which begs the question of why). SO I think he's asking whether he should have protested more strenuously, to get the judge to overrule himself or just let it go this time and hopefully next time the judge will make the correct ruling.
 
I

Istanbul

Guest
True, but it's important to confirm for sure that yes, the judge DOES know better.

Failing that, he needs to take the judge aside and ask him what the he\_\_ he thinks he's doing.
Magic is a game, and games have rules. You don't ignore the rules to make someone happy. It's not done. I don't care how irritated the opponent would have been, when 'keeping the peace' takes priority over 'doing what's right', it's time to find a new judge.
 
T

TOG

Guest
when you sign up for a game that has a set of assigned rules, you agree to play by those rules. the judges agree to officiate those rules. the store you play in agrees to enforce those rules. when you go to the owner of the store and tell him you're going to report him
A) to WOTC
B) the police
C) local administration governing gambling and gaming
D) better business beurau
E) the other dozen friends that usually play with you
F) local news station/paper
A game store often doesn't make much money above their bottom line. When you've got the rules on your side, and someone is blatantly robbing you, stand up to them.
You wouldn't let some stranger come up and put his hands in your pockets, would you?
 
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