Pack hunt, Chimeric Idol

Discussion in 'Rules Questions' started by Duel, Sep 9, 2000.

  1. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    hey, check me on this:
    Pack hunt says "Look through your library for up to three copies of target creature and put them into your hand"
    now, if you make chimeric idol a creature, can you hunt for that?
  2. Adso_dMelk Abbot of Wooded Mountains

    I hope so... :D
    nice question duel!!!!
    c.i. as always!!
  3. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    Yep, I would say so unless the wording on Pack Hunt is 'creature card', which would refer to a summon or artifact creature spell (Idol is an artifact spell, not an artifact creature).

    And the news is...

    (lift music plays as Gizmo runs to rares folder and back again) doesn`t say that, so your Idols can proudly hunt in packs of four!
  4. el_terror New Member

    I am not convinced of this, remember that the Idol is an artifact, that crad has the ability to become a creature already being in play, the Idols in your library are artifacts and non creatures.

    The idol only become a creature after you played and if you decides that.
  5. Cerberus New Member

    If you can do that then it is sweet, that is a interesting idea Duel
  6. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    pack hunt says "copies of target creature"
    It now, are the idols in the deck copies of a creature, because they are the same card, or are they not, because they are not creatures. Just a little more confusion...
  7. Lythand Veteran CPA Member

    Ok..Think it this way. Pack hunt targets the idol. It is a creature. So it looks for 3 more creatures. But The Idol is just that. An Idol in the deck. An Artifact, not activated.
    So it doesnt exist as so in the deck until its activated, and that cant be done till its in play. Think of it this way. If you make a creature token, and target it with pack hunt, will you find tokens in your library??

    No you wont :)
  8. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    but it doens't say "look for a creature" it says look for a copy of target creature, and the idols are copies, right?

    Oh, and if you had a card that was a token in you deck, it would find it. It doesn't work because there is not card that's a token.
  9. Y The Alien Deity

    Pack Hunt searches for copies of the creature targeted. It doesn't care if the ones in the library were creatures. Hunting for Idols works.
  10. terzarima New Member

    Man you guys are wrong..... until you tap all your mana to make Chimeric Idol a creature its not creature..... and can you cast Pack Hunt with no lands? not likely.... so you could if you had another place for mana like some elves or vine treelises but other than that no.....
  11. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good

    First of all, feasibility is not the issue. We don't care if it _can_ be done realistically, we want to know what happens if it _is_ done. Second, you can add four mana to your mana pool, then tap your lands, THEN play Pack Hunt. So that's not a problem.

    Ya' know, I really don't have a clue on this one. You're over my head, seems like the wording on Pack Hunt is deeply flawed...
  12. Adso_dMelk Abbot of Wooded Mountains

    the most consistent position on this discussion it's el_terror's one.

    let's say I have a hidden spider enchantment on play and my opponent player cast a creature with flying... then the enchantment (and only then) becomes a spider creature... I can't use Pack Hunt on that creature because it will be useless. That spider only exist as a creature if it's becomes from play... in any other condition it's an echantment card.

    With Chimeric Idol it's the same. The Idol it's an Artifact. So it's becomes a creature from (and on) play. Then you can't search and artifact with Pack Hunt.

    "sad but true" like one friend of mine always says. :D
  13. Lythand Veteran CPA Member

    First of all..ademis22.

    You can activate the idol first to make it a creature. Tapping your lands is supposed to be "drawback" to activating it. So in response to having to tap it as a draw back, you tap the mana to draw mana from the lands. Remeber, you can activate the Idol if you have NO lands on the bored. Its not a required activation cost, but a draw back.

    Y and duel: The idol is an artifact now living. Cast pack hunt on it. It looks thru your graveyard for "living idols" But this is not possible because they are not living or activated when in your library. It searches for copies of target creature. But in your library it is not a creature.

    Zodak: The answer to your question is that Packhunt would target the Idol. It would be successfully castand resolved but in its quest to find copies of chemeric idol as an activated creature, it would not find anything.

    Here is the card text for packhunt:Text(NE): Search your library for up to three copies of target creature, reveal them, and put them into your hand. Then
    shuffle your library.

    It says copies of target creature. There for until activated, which you can not do until its in play, its not a creature.

    I believe I am right. anyone else with ideas??
  14. Lythand Veteran CPA Member

    If you have a "hidden creature" enchantment in play. It gets activated, you can't cast Pack hunt on it and find copies of it in your library because in your library its still and enchantment. When activated the type of cards changes from "enchantment" to "summon creature." Same as the idol. In your library its type is "artifact", When activated it becomes "summon creature" . There for once the pack hunt resolves and looks for "summon Idol" it will never find it. The text of pack hunt says "search for UP TO three copies of target creature" there for you can cast it and not find anything.
  15. el_terror New Member

    I think we're forgetting one basic rule, we must first accept that idol is an artefact and have a very particular ability, but continues being an artifact.

    If you play the Idol abilility it's become a creature, the rest of the Idols in your deck are even artifacts and noncreatures, the hunt is clear "looks for a copy of target creature", but when you go to deck you haven't copies of anybody and hunt loses the effect. The idol lost the original condition, but the other ones (in the deck) not.

    In my opinion the only way you would be that possible, is the following one: if when you declaring an idol creature instantaneously the other ones also is it.
  16. Namielus Phrexian Plaguelord

    It works cause packhunt reads "search for a creature" and not "search for a creature card"

    So anything that is a creature is a valid target and you can search for that card.
  17. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good

    Re: Lythand: Well, I agree... Sort of. See, when a creature is in your library, it is referred to as a 'creature card.' What Pack Hunt is doing is looking for anything in your deck that is a 'copy of target creature.' The 'target creature' being the Idol, of course. So, the question is, is a card with the same name and abilities a 'copy?' Logically, I would say yes. If Pack Hunt said 'search for all creature card copies' I would say no, but I just says look for copies.

    This also negates the idea that Pack Hunt goes and looks for 'summon Idol.' It does no such thing. The Idol is never a summon Idol.

    Alright, I just went to D'Angelo's site... There's some rulings that are slightly off what we're looking for:

    E.4.Ruling.3 - Because of Rule E.4.2, a copy card cannot copy something which is only of the appropriate type due to an effect. The copy card ignores all effects on the thing it is copying. For example, Clone can only copy token creatures and permanents which are "Creature" or "Artifact Creature" cards. It may not copy a land which is a creature due to Kormus Bell's effect. [WotC Rules Team 98/03/31]

    That doesn't specifically refer to cards that say 'seach for a copy of,' I'm afraid, it's talking about stuff like Clone and Copy Artifact. But I think it might apply to our predictiment. According to that, you can't use Pack Hunt on the Idol.

  18. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    Man... I disappear for a few days and all hell breaks loose in here. ;)

    Okay, here goes.

    Pack Hunt targets a creature. It doesn't care whether it's a creature "card" since it doesn't say so. A Chimeric Idol is a legal target as long as it's a creature when Pack Hunt is announced.

    Pack Hunt searches for a copy of that creature. A copy is a card with the same name as the targetted creature, regardless of what the card's type is. So, Pack Hunt will let you search for up to three more Chimeric Idol cards.

    Other examples of legal targets for Pack Hunt:

    [*]an animated Treetop Village (or other "man-land")
    [*]a global enchantment when Opalescence is in play
    [*]a token created by Dual Nature
    [*]anything else that's a creature

    other important notes:

    [*]If it's anywhere but in play, it's not a creature, it's a card (or a token that's about to cease to exist).
    [*]A token with a simple creature type as its name (e.g. one created by Snake Basket) is a legal target for Dual Nature, but the effect will fail to do anything, since there are no cards with that name ("Cobra," in this case) in the game.
  19. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good

    Ah! CT! Thank God! :)

    Thank you thank you thank you thank you...
  20. Purple_jester New Member

    This for anyone who wants verification on what Chaos Turtle was saying.

    From the general rulings, it says that the copy of a card emulates all "initial characteristics of that card" as it is printed on the card.

    When Pack Hunt resolves, it checks to see if the target is legal. A properly activated Chimeric Idol will become "a 3/3 artifact creature until end of turn" and is therefore a legal target. Copies of the card will have the characteristics: Chimeric Idol, 3, Artifact, 0: Tap all lands you control, Chimeric Idol becomes a 3/3 artifact creature until end of turn. A copy will not have the "artifact creature" card type, because this is not an "initial characteristic of the card."

    Therefore, once activated, you CAN use Pack Hunt to search for your other Idols. The only requirement of Pack Hunt is that its target be a creature at the time it is cast.

    I think that this was pretty clear-cut, since there hasn't been any errata on Pack Hunt. I suppose searching for cards which can become creatures is one of the intended uses of the card. How versatile! ;)

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