old-school deck upgrades?

[MonoBlack]

Hey all.

I'm obviously new to the boards, but I'm posting this here instead of the Intro forum because of the attached decklists. Hope that's okay.

I started playing magic during the Legends expansion, and continued heavily for several years - until Mercadian Masks. I stopped altogether at some point during Nemesis after a period of light play. Since then, aside from an odd trade here and there to update a deck, I hadn't played the game for quite some time. A few friends and I have started to get back into MTG over the past couple of days after collectively realizing that we've all still got all of our cards and decks, and we intend to return to regular play.

As I was looking over some of the new sets and rules, I found, to my absolute horror, that the 1.5 (or "Legacy," I guess it is called now?) format now includes banned Necropotence, banned Demonic Tutor, and banned Demonic Consultation. These are cards that had previously been legal for years... can anyone tell me what is it that got them suddenly banned? I was never a fan of type 1 due to the $power nine$ (I played 1.5 and 2 in tournaments), but our casual games were generally played with the loosest possible ruleset - which is of course type 1. However, the fact that Necropotence and Demonic Consultation have also been restricted in type 1 (or "Vintage," right?) means that one of my favorite and oldest decks - one I've had in various forms since Ice Age originally came out - is no longer legal in any format. Ouch.

So then, with those deck-altering changes in mind, and also the fact that I've never played with (or really seen) Apocalypse, Odessy, Torment, Judgement, Onslaught, Legions, Scourge, Mirrodin, Darksteel, Fifth Dawn, Champions of Kamigawa, Betrayers of Kamigawa, Saviors of Kamigawa, and anything else that has been released since, I have some updating to do. I do have a select few cards from Prophecy, Invasion, and Planeshift, but I don't really know the bulk of these sets either.

Anyway, the reason for all of this yammering is that I could use some help revising (or scrapping) old decks in light of new cards - and I would also be very grateful if someone could tell me how Black has been doing all this time. I've always been primarily interested in monoblack/artifact decks, with an emphasis on hand-destruction and suicide advantages; Greed, Necropotence, Necrologia, Lich, Hatred, etc. Hymn to Tourach, for instance, is my favorite card. Is Black still capable of this sort of thing? Has it gained any new, significant abilities? The only other color that I like to play is Blue, although I do occasionally mix something else with Blue or Black when I must.


So, these are the decks that I have at the moment - they're all old and need updating with new cards, and legalizing for Legacy format (or total deconstruction if that's impossible). All of these decks have sideboards, but I'm not going to bother listing those.


* Necropotence - Mono Black (type 1.5 legal when I played, totally illegal now)

Necropotence (4)
Dark Ritual (4)
Bubbling Muck (3)
Demonic Tutor (1)
Demonic Consultation (4)
Lake of the Dead (1)
Yawgmoth's Will (1)

Unmask (4)
Hymn to Tourach (4)
Duress (2)
Hypnotic Specter (4)

Drain Life (4)
Ivory Tower (3)

Nevinyrral's Disk (3)
Diabolic Edict (4)

Swamp (18)




* Hatred - Mono Black (type 2 legal when I created it, totally illegal now)

Hatred (4)
Dark Ritual (4)
Crystal Vein (4)
Demonic Consultation (4)
Kaervek's Spite (1)

Unmask (4)
Duress (4)

Carnophage (4)
Sarcomancy (4)
Phyrexian Negator (4)
Dauthi Slayer (4)
Dauthi Horror (4)

Swamp (17)



* Land Destruction - Mono Black (type 1.5 legal when I played, only Vintage legal now)

Nether Void (4)
Sinkhole (4)
Icequake (4)
Rain of Tears (4)
Strip Mine (1)
Mishra's Helix (1)
Befoul (3)

Diabolic Edict (2)

Duress (4)

Dark Ritual (4)
Sol Ring (1)
Necrologia (2)

Frozen Shade (4)
Spawning Pool (4)

Swamp (18)



* Recurring Graveyard - Mono Black (type 1.5 legal when I played, only Vintage legal now)

Ashen Ghoul (4)
Nether Shadow (4)
Bone Dancer (2)
Carnophage (4)
Sacromancy (4)

Buried Alive (4)
Dark Ritual (3)
Sol Ring (1)
Demonic Tutor (1)

Altar of Dementia (4)
Soulshriek (4)
Grave Pact (4)

Crawlspace (2)
Maze of Ith (4)

Swamp (16)



* Discard - Mono Black (type 1.5 legal when I played, only Vintage legal now)

Hypnotic Specter (4)
Abyssal Specter (3)
Mindstab Thrull (3)

Megrim (4)
Dying Wail (4)
The Rack (4)

Sol Ring (1)
Dark Ritual (4)
Necrologia (2)
Demonic Tutor (1)

Diabolic Edict (4)

Hymn to Tourach (4)
Funeral Charm (4)
Memory Jar (1)

Swamp (17)



* Control - Mono Blue (originally built as a type 2 deck, later modified for type 1.5 legal - only Vintage legal now)

Sol Ring (1)
Memory Crystal (4)
Whispers of the Muse (3)
Soothsaying (1)
Archivist (3)

Man-o'-War (4)
Tradewind Rider (4)
Temporal Adept (2)
Rootwater Thief (3)
Morphling (1)

Counterspell (4)
Arcane Denial (4)
Force of Will (2)

Black Vise (1)
Shimmer (1)

Island (18)




* Stasis - Blue/White (type 1.5 legal when I played - only Vintage legal now)

Stasis (4)
Chronatog (4)
Kismet (4)
Forsaken City (3)

Counterspell (4)
Arcane Denial (4)
Dissipate (4)
Force of Will (4)
Mana Short (2)

Impulse (4)
Enlightened Tutor (1)
Sol Ring (1)
Soothsaying (1)

Disenchant (2)
Swords to Plowshares (3)

Tundra (4)
Island (7)
Plains (7)




* Generic Casual Deck - Blue/Black (type 1.5 legal when I played - only Vintage legal now)

Dark Ritual (3)
Sol Ring (1)
Demonic Tutor (1)
Quicksilver Amulet (1)
Volrath's Stronghold (1)
Soldevi Excavations (1)

Sengir Vampire (4)
Air Elemental (4)
Clone (2)
Mahamoti Djinn (1)
Vesuvan Doppleganger (1)

Underworld Dreams (1)

Illusionary Mask (1)

Maze of Ith (1)
Terror (2)
Diabolic Edict (4)
Boomerang (2)

Counterspell (4)
Arcane Denial (4)
Dissipate (2)
Flash Counter (2)

Underground Sea (4)
Island (7)
Swamp (7)



Any input on upgrading-to-new-cards/editing-for-Legacy that anyone has is more than welcome, as is commentary on the current state of Black in the game! I am especially curious - can black still stand alone in the modern MTG environment?

 

[Killer Joe]

I could not add anything because the look great already, but hey, I'm kind of a casual player actually might 'tone-those-down' a bit for my games.

 

[MonoBlack]

I could not add anything because the look great already, but hey, I'm kind of a casual player actually might 'tone-those-down' a bit for my games.

No problem, thanks for looking at them anyway!

In addition to advice on upgrading these decks with newer cards, and bending them to Legacy format, I'm also looking for information on Black magic over the past few expansions. I'm going through the cardlists as quickly as I can, but do you know about any prominent Black spells - perhaps new sorts of Black spells/creatures that have made a significant impact on the way that the color is played - that have come out over the past six or so sets? I think I read somewhere that Dark Ritual wasn't available in type 2 anymore, which leads me to suspect that the color has been revamped somehow.

 

[evan d]

What might help us is which cards are making the deck illegal, and what purpose the cards where being used for for each deck.

 

[Oversoul]

Hi Monoblack. I don't play much at the moment, but I have some interest in Legacy.

Demonic Consultation and Necropotence were restricted in Type I years ago. When Type 1.5 (no Legacy) broke away from Type I (now Vintage) it left a lot of cards on the banned list that were considered too powerful for the format.

Without Necropotence, black decks are not at all what they used to be.

Several of your decks can be altered to become legal in Legacy (1.5). However, with Survival of the Fittest running rampant (they banned most broken enchantments, but they missed one), building a competitive deck is something entirely different.

Like I said, I am not playing much right now. If you want some serious help with tournament decks for Legacy, your best bet might be checking out http://www.mtgthesource.com/ (dedicated to the format) or maybe www.themanadrain.com (they have a section in their forums devoted to Legacy). I'll try to do what I can from here and you can probably get some help from other CPA members. If it's casual decks you're looking to build, we should be able to provide plenty of advice. Now here's my take on your decks...

Your Necro deck: Dead with Necropotence banned. I'd either forget about it or only use it in casual games where banned cards are a non-issue. That depends on what you (and your opponents) prefer.

Your Hatred deck: Replace the Demonic Consultations with something else and you have a perfectly good casual deck. Suicide was a rogue archetype last I checked, but it's not completely unviable in tournaments. If you want to try to make it a tournament deck, let me know. I never really tested Suicide black decks when I was playing and deckbuilding for Legacy. But I'm sure we can come up with something, even if it isn't spectacular.

Your Nether Void deck: I haven't actually heard of Nether Void in the top eight of any tournaments recently. But back when Type 1.5 first broke from Vintage, a friend of mine worked hard to build a competitive Nether Void deck. He did complete a decklist/sideboard, but didn't have enough Sinkholes/Nether Voids to physically build his dream deck and take it to a tournament (I think he's since quit the game altogether due to other issues). I don't have his final decklist anymore, but I might still have one of its incarnations saved on Apprentice. I can't be sure that Nether Void will be able to stand up in the tournament environment. Like Hatred, I don't think it is tier one right now or anything, but it's probably still able to work as a rogue deck.

Your graveyard deck: It really only needs to lose two cards to become legal in Legacy. But the deck doesn't look all that great to begin with. I'd make this thing strictly casual. Whether you want it to be casual Vintage or casual Legacy is a matter of personal preference. I tend to go with Legacy, simply because it actually stands a chance if you do go up against a finely tuned deck, even if that chance is slim (whereas a Vintage deck with power nine cards would rip your creation apart).

Your Discard deck: Okay, when was Memory Jar legal? I was playing casually when it came out, but I don't remember it ever being legal in 1.5, and if so, was that for any significant length of time? Anyway, if you're interested in keeping a discard deck for Legacy, there is Pox. I say this partially because you could use it, but mostly because it's probably my favorite Legacy deck. Most of the tournament wins discard decks have racked up in Legacy have been Pox-based decks (to the best of my knowledge). But if you don't want this to be a tournament deck, the regular discard strategy you have already will work well enough.

Your Monoblue deck: Okay, Black Vise was banned in 1.5 before Temporal Adept was printed. Regardless of that, this deck can easily be converted into a casual deck for Legacy. If you want it to be a tournament deck, it'll need a lot of work. I did build a monoblue deck for Legacy though, so I can help with that if you'd like.

Your Stasis deck: The only thing making this illegal in Legacy is Sol Ring, which was never even legal in Type 1.5 anyway (I wasn't sure, but I checked CrystalKeep and I was right). I know some people have been attempting to make a viable Stasis for Legacy tournaments. I haven't seen the decklists for such attempts though. I'd be happy to work on a Stasis deck with you, if you want to pursue it.

Your Generic deck: What you do with this one depends entirely on what sort of deck you want to build, and on how competitive you want your deck to be. It looks rather unfocused right now, but has potential.

As for your question about black in Legacy...

Black fits into several multicolored decks. But in this format it just might be the weakest color. Blue fits into tons of decks and does well on its own as BBS or monoblue Trix or whatever. Monored decks are very good, and red cards are used in some multicolored decks. Green has Survival of the Fittest and fits into many multicolored decks. White isn't all that great on its own, but there are white cards splashed into various decks. Black seems to see the least use in tier one/two decks.

However, some decks do use a few black cards. The only monoblack decks that are anything more than laughable in a tournament environment are probably Pox, Nether Void, and Suicide. Unfortunately, none of them seem to be doing all that well in tournaments. Madness or Sligh can throw down streams of attackers very quickly. Monoblue control (BSB, BBS, whatever you want to call it), Landstill, and Scepter Prison decks have plenty of counterspells. Survival decks are broken. Goblin Welder is broken. There are even a few combo decks. It's a tough metagame for monoblack decks to break into (but it isn't impossible).

 

[sageridder]

Well to be legacy legal your Hatred deck isn't far off.You only have to replace the Demonic Consultation.You might consider
http://www.wizards.com/magic/autocard.asp?name=Desperate Research
http://www.wizards.com/magic/autocard.asp?name=Diabolic Tutor
http://www.wizards.com/magic/autocard.asp?name=Insidious Dreams
or
http://www.wizards.com/magic/autocard.asp?name=Rhystic Tutor

Since these water your search down a bit compaired to the consultation, you might playtest removing the crystal veins for a second search card from these.Good luck.

 

[Oversoul]

If the less efficient tutors don't work out, you can always just try a tutorless Suicide deck. You won't always draw into Hatred as quickly. But there are other options for winning...

 

[MonoBlack]

What might help us is which cards are making the deck illegal, and what purpose the cards where being used for for each deck.

Sure. Like I said earlier, though, I'm also looking for suggested additions from the aforementioned pool of new cards that I've never used before - the function of the decks is self explanatory, no?


Deck 1 - Necropotence
* Necropotence is now banned in Legacy, and it is restricted in Vintage. The entire deck is built around the card advantage granted by the Necros.

* Yawgmoth's Will is now banned in Legacy, and it is now restricted in Vintage. The purpose of the card is primarially to recycle Bubbling Mucks and Dark Rituals from the graveyard for the purpose of powering a large Drain Life. It is also employed in the event that all Drain Lifes have been previously used for creature control, which in and of itself allows them to be used as such, as needed.

* Demonic Consultation is now banned in Legacy, and it is now restricted in Vintage. This card was essential, along with the Demonic Tutor, for ensuring a reliable establishment of the central Necropotence engine - especially after the emergency use of a Nevinyrral's Disk.

* Demonic Tutor is now banned in Legacy. This card, along with the Demonic Consultations, was a crucial aspect of ensuring the reliable establishment of the central Necropotence engine - especially after the emergency use of a Nevinyrral's Disk.

The deck therefore centrally employs cards that bar it from Legacy, where it is designed to run, and in numbers that make it illegal in Vintage format.



Deck 2 - Hatred
* Demonic Consultation is now banned in Legacy, and it is now restricted in Vintage. This card was essential for ensuring the posession of a Hatred, Dark Ritual, and/or Crystal Vein in the earlygame. The deck, if issued a perfect hand, can kill on turn two. If the hand isn't perfect, but Demonic Consultation replaces one of the missing elements, it kills third or fourth turn regularly. Without the Demonic Consultations, however, the average killspeed is reduced to the point of emasculating Hatred as a viable killspell - for any number of reasons, depending upon what sort of deck is being played by my opponent.

The deck therefore employs one card that bars it from Legacy, a step above where it was designed to run in the first place, and it has that card in numbers that make the deck illegal in Vintage format as well.




Deck 3 - Land Destruction
* Strip Mine is now banned in Legacy. This card was employed as the only mana-less land destruction within the deck, which was given added value when a Nether Void was sucessfully cast. The card is not central to the functioning of the deck, but the entire mechanism could sometimes struggle in producing a proper ratio of land-to-land destruction spells for the purpose of keeping the opponent below the Nether Void mana requirement. Necrologica was added to lessen this fault, and Strip Mine plays to lessen the occasional problem as well.

* Sol Ring is now banned in Legacy. This card, as in any deck, is fast mana. It had great value where earlygame Nether Voids were concerned, and in tandem with the aforementioned cards, played to lessen the occasional ratio-studder that the deck could suffer.

This deck therefore employs two cards, in application to a specific problem, that currently keep it out of the Legacy ruleset for which it was originally designed.




Deck 4 - Recurring Graveyard
* Sol Ring is now banned in Legacy. This card, as in any deck, is fast mana. It had great value where earlygame Buried Alive, Altar of Dementia, and Crawlspaces were concerned. In combination with the Dark Rituals and Demonic Tutor (which could grab the Sol Ring or the crucial Buried Alive) provided a steeper mana curve in the presence of less basic lands than I normally run for a deck this size. This allowed for a slightly denser spell content, translating to a stronger late-game performance.

* Demonic Tutor is now banned in Legacy. This card, as in any deck, functions in the capacity of maintaining the consistent drawing of central cards.

The deck therefore employs two cards, in augmentation, that currently keep it out of the Legacy format for which it was originally designed.




Deck 5 - Discard
* Memory Jar is now banned in Legacy. This was the most significant weapon within the deck, even though it has always been restricted. A single Memory Jar use at the end of my turn combined with just one Megrim equates to 14 direct damage dealt to the opponent. In the case of multiplayer games, the Memory Jar could kill the entire table at once in the presense of two or more Megrims.

* Sol Ring is now banned in Legacy. This card, as in any deck, is fast mana. It had great value where earlygame Memory Jar, Abyssal Specter,and Necrologia were available. It also allowed multiple Racks to be emptied from the hand in addition to a continuing B and/or BB discard assault, following the exceptionally large Necrologica-driven card draw that I often employed whenever it surfaced in early to midgame.* Demonic Tutor is now banned in Legacy. This card, as in any deck, functions in the capacity of maintaining the consistent drawing of central cards. When drawn, it was almost always used to pull a Necrologia or Memory Jar to finish the game.

The deck therefore contains three cards which now keep it out of Legacy format, two of which are a significant statistical enhancement and one of which was the single most potent weapon within the deck.




Deck 6 - Control
* Black Vise is now banned in Legacy format. This was a significant source of damage when drawn immediately, in tandem with the overflowing hand that is created by the returning of permanants. When pulled early, the Black Vise allowed me to reserve mana for countering any and all threats to control, as opposed to producing creatures for the purpose of attacking. Any turn, for instance, where I need not depend on a creature to attack is one turn where the Tradewind Riders can function at full efficiency. At times, in the absence of the Black Vise, I would have to refrain from drawing via Archivist in order to use the Tradewind Riders.

* Sol Ring is now banned in Legacy. This card, as in any deck, is fast mana. It was particularly useful here in the colorless casting of Manowars, Archivists, and Tradewind Riders, while leaving a greater amount of solid U open for the various Counterspells upon which the deck can depend in the early and midgame.

Once again, neither of these cards are absolutely assential to the functioning of the deck - but when played, they greatly impact the options in terms of attack and defense that I have available to me at any given time. Given the strong card-drawing aspect of the deck, at least one of the two was played very often. Both cards bar the deck from the revised Legacy format.





Deck 7 - Stasis
* Sol Ring is now banned in Legacy. This card, as in any deck, is fast mana. It had outstanding value in the readying of the killcards Kismet and Stasis, which, when combined with the Chronatog, are the method by which the opponend is destroyed. As in the Control deck, the use of Sol Ring also allows a greater number of U and W mana to remain untapped, for use by the absolutely massive reseviour of Counterspells that this deck relies upon and the white utility spells that are overflowing from the sideboard (and essential for killing Sligh).

* Enlightened Tutor gives me pause. According to this WoTC list, it is not banned from Legacy - but the card is infact restricted in Vintage. Is the non-banning a typo? This card is, as a Demonic Tutor would be in one of my black decks, used to pull one of the central cards or the Sol Ring.

Thus, there is at least one card that keeps this deck out of the Legacy format for which it was originally designed.




Deck 8 - Generic Casual Deck
* Illusionary Mask is now banned in Legacy.


* Sol Ring is now banned in Legacy. This card, as in any deck, is fast mana. This deck, however, functions with very clunky creatures; they are only brought out in a rapid fasion with the assistance of Dark Rituals, Sol Ring, and Quicksilver Amulet (which, itself, is served by the Sol Ring). The deck functions in terms of very mild control, fielding midsized to large creatures (and copying anything more significant), Counterspelling spells that threaten their attack, and using black creature killing to lessen the opponent's ability to block that attack. The Counterspells therefore serve both an offensive and defensive purpose, and it becomes more important to have open U whenever possible.


* Demonic Tutoris now banned in Legacy. This card, as in any deck, functions in the capacity of maintaining the consistent drawing of central cards. Here, it is used to draw any number of things - depending upon the situation. This deck is not as focused as the previous few, and so there is no central mechanism. Given the mana requirements of many creatures, however, and the need for open mana at all times, the tutor is of great asset in pulling Sol Ring or Quicksilver Amulet as well as it is for grabbing an additional Counterspell.


Thus, there are two cards that force this deck outside of its native format.

 

[Oversoul]

* Enlightened Tutor gives me pause. According to this WoTC list, it is not banned from Legacy - but the card is infact restricted in Vintage. Is the non-banning a typo?

Enlightened Tutor is, in fact, legal in Legacy. The Type 1.5 banned list broke away from the Type I restricted list less than a year ago.

You really didn't need to type all that stuff up. Evan D could have looked up the banned list himself. It's not difficult.

 

[MonoBlack]

Demonic Consultation and Necropotence were restricted in Type I years ago. When Type 1.5 (no Legacy) broke away from Type I (now Vintage) it left a lot of cards on the banned list that were considered too powerful for the format.

I am almost certain that 1.5 (what I've been incorrectly calling "legacy" - I only first heard that term the other day, and saw that it has replaced 1.5) was already in existence when Demonic Consultation was Type 2 legal, and unrestricted. It must have been reprinted in 5th Edition or something like that (years ago, memory bad). Prior to the sanctioned 1.5 split, we were essentially playing what became 1.5 in local games anyway - so I've almost always thought of it those terms. As it stands, please forgive slight deviations in what I call "1.5" - they don't ultimately matter, as I'm now universalizing to the sanctioned Legacy format.

Without Necropotence, black decks are not at all what they used to be.

I was afraid something like this would be the case.

Several of your decks can be altered to become legal in Legacy (1.5). However, with Survival of the Fittest running rampant (they banned most broken enchantments, but they missed one), building a competitive deck is something entirely different.

I suppose that I should mention that not all of those decks were what I would call 'competitive' in the first place. I suppose it might seem odd that I want them to conform to Legacy regardless of whether or not they are bound for the sanctioned tourney scene. Of those, the only decks that ever saw serious application were the Hatred deck (when it was T2 legal), an earlier incarnation of the Stasis deck, and an earlier IceAgeish form of the Necro deck. The other decks were, at the very most, only employed in the weekly unsanctioned tournaments at my old comic store - I regard that as casual.

I have always loathed Survival of the Fittest...

Like I said, I am not playing much right now. If you want some serious help with tournament decks for Legacy, your best bet might be checking out http://www.mtgthesource.com/ (dedicated to the format) or maybe www.themanadrain.com (they have a section in their forums devoted to Legacy).

Thanks! I'll definitely check those out as well.

Your Necro deck: Dead with Necropotence banned. I'd either forget about it or only use it in casual games where banned cards are a non-issue. That depends on what you (and your opponents) prefer.

I figured it would be, much to my dismay. My only hope was some strange new card that I've never heard of, serving a parallel purpose. The casual games that we play at our own table are, at the very most, Type 1 - or pretty close to it. We to look to it for restrictions (not bannings), deck size minimums, and card maximums. I, however, liked to try and keep my decks to what was 1.5 in any event. I would feel weird playing with a banned cardcount, so it looks like it's back to the old binder for Necropotence. Sucky.

Your Hatred deck: Replace the Demonic Consultations with something else and you have a perfectly good casual deck. Suicide was a rogue archetype last I checked, but it's not completely unviable in tournaments. If you want to try to make it a tournament deck, let me know. I never really tested Suicide black decks when I was playing and deckbuilding for Legacy. But I'm sure we can come up with something, even if it isn't spectacular.

If this particular deck can be at all salvaged for serious play, which is what its original purpose was, I'd love to give it a shot. It did very well against the mainstream Donate deck of the day. Thanks, also, for offering your help - it isn't the sort of deck that I'd want to play casually. Where should we begin?

Your Nether Void deck: I haven't actually heard of Nether Void in the top eight of any tournaments recently. But back when Type 1.5 first broke from Vintage, a friend of mine worked hard to build a competitive Nether Void deck. He did complete a decklist/sideboard, but didn't have enough Sinkholes/Nether Voids to physically build his dream deck and take it to a tournament (I think he's since quit the game altogether due to other issues). I don't have his final decklist anymore, but I might still have one of its incarnations saved on Apprentice. I can't be sure that Nether Void will be able to stand up in the tournament environment. Like Hatred, I don't think it is tier one right now or anything, but it's probably still able to work as a rogue deck.

This is another one that I've never played in a sanctioned tournament, but I do have all of the cards and have played it hundreds of times against many different sorts of decks. The major problem with my build as it is, is that it tends to "stutter" (as I discussed in my second post). I think that, ultimately, Nether Void would be far more effective if it was just an Enchantment (or whatever you call nonspecific enchantments in today's game) instead of an Enchant World (or whatever you might call those now), as it could then be stacked to devastating effect. My primary interest with this deck, though, is simply getting it working as efficiently as possible within the Legacy ruleset - and adding any updated components that might apply. I don't see myself entering anything with it.

Your graveyard deck: It really only needs to lose two cards to become legal in Legacy. But the deck doesn't look all that great to begin with. I'd make this thing strictly casual. Whether you want it to be casual Vintage or casual Legacy is a matter of personal preference. I tend to go with Legacy, simply because it actually stands a chance if you do go up against a finely tuned deck, even if that chance is slim (whereas a Vintage deck with power nine cards would rip your creation apart).

Yeah. This one has never been a 'serious' deck, and $power nine$ decks would rip all of the decks that I posted apart (which is why I don't want them to remain T1 - there is no excuse for not superpowering them in that case, and they would all be inferior to straight control). I actually have all of the cards for a P9 control deck (well, I don't own a Timetwister... P8 I guess), but I really don't like playing it because the cards are inaccessible to so many people - and I am not interested in p9 tournament play at all.

Your Discard deck: Okay, when was Memory Jar legal? I was playing casually when it came out, but I don't remember it ever being legal in 1.5, and if so, was that for any significant length of time?

It was either legal, or the local venue was using an augmented banlist and I didn't notice. I know that it was banned in short order, even there. In any event, as mentioned above, this is another deck that never saw sanctioned tournament play.

Anyway, if you're interested in keeping a discard deck for Legacy, there is Pox. I say this partially because you could use it, but mostly because it's probably my favorite Legacy deck. Most of the tournament wins discard decks have racked up in Legacy have been Pox-based decks (to the best of my knowledge). But if you don't want this to be a tournament deck, the regular discard strategy you have already will work well enough.

Hmmm, Pox. I've got a few of those. That also sounds like an idea. What would you suggest in turning this into a competitive Legacy Pox deck? Like I said, I really don't know much about Apocalypse, Odyssey, Torment, Judgement, Onslaught, Legions, Scourge, Mirrodin, Darksteel, Fifth Dawn, Champions of Kamigawa, Betrayers of Kamigawa, Saviors of Kamigawa, or anything else that has been released since.

Your Monoblue deck: Okay, Black Vise was banned in 1.5 before Temporal Adept was printed. Regardless of that, this deck can easily be converted into a casual deck for Legacy. If you want it to be a tournament deck, it'll need a lot of work. I did build a monoblue deck for Legacy though, so I can help with that if you'd like.

This deck will never see a sanctioned tournament. It wasn't very good in its old T2 format either. I'm just looking for Legacy compliance and any updating that needs to be done. As for the Vise, you're right. Another discrepancy in the local venue's apparently informal "1.5".

I know some people have been attempting to make a viable Stasis for Legacy tournaments. I haven't seen the decklists for such attempts though. I'd be happy to work on a Stasis deck with you, if you want to pursue it.

Certainly. The Stasis deck, since Necropotence is totally destroyed and black runs as weak as you say it does, is probably going to be what I end up entering the majority of sanctioned tournaments with.

Your Generic deck: What you do with this one depends entirely on what sort of deck you want to build, and on how competitive you want your deck to be. It looks rather unfocused right now, but has potential.

This is just for screwing around really. The premise is nonspecific; large creatures at a reasonable speed, board dominance through counterspells and creature killing spells. Legacy, though, is something that I want it to conform to.

As for your question about black in Legacy...

Black fits into several multicolored decks. But in this format it just might be the weakest color. Blue fits into tons of decks and does well on its own as BBS or monoblue Trix or whatever. Monored decks are very good, and red cards are used in some multicolored decks. Green has Survival of the Fittest and fits into many multicolored decks. White isn't all that great on its own, but there are white cards splashed into various decks. Black seems to see the least use in tier one/two decks.

Not good, not good. Damn.

However, some decks do use a few black cards. The only monoblack decks that are anything more than laughable in a tournament environment are probably Pox, Nether Void, and Suicide. Unfortunately, none of them seem to be doing all that well in tournaments. Madness or Sligh can throw down streams of attackers very quickly. Monoblue control (BSB, BBS, whatever you want to call it), Landstill, and Scepter Prison decks have plenty of counterspells. Survival decks are broken. Goblin Welder is broken. There are even a few combo decks. It's a tough metagame for monoblack decks to break into (but it isn't impossible).

Okay then. So, as far as tournament play goes, you estimate that it may be possible to salvage what was the Hatred deck, the Stasis deck, and what was the Discard deck? That's good to hear, I wasn't expecting more than one of the eight that I posted to have any tournament viability in today's game.

Thanks again for your detailed reply, and any help that you're willing to give in revising those three. I think that I'll probably work on Stasis first, since I suspect that it will be the nearest to completion.

Enlightened Tutor is, in fact, legal in Legacy. The Type 1.5 banned list broke away from the Type I restricted list less than a year ago.

Okay, good.

You might consider
http://www.wizards.com/magic/autoca...perate Research
http://www.wizards.com/magic/autoca...=Diabolic Tutor
http://www.wizards.com/magic/autoca...nsidious Dreams
or
http://www.wizards.com/magic/autoca...e=Rhystic Tutor

Since these water your search down a bit compaired to the consultation, you might playtest removing the crystal veins for a second search card from these.Good luck.

Thanks for linking these. I've much card-list studying to do.

 

[Oversoul]

Hmmm, Pox. I've got a few of those. That also sounds like an idea. What would you suggest in turning this into a competitive Legacy Pox deck? Like I said, I really don't know much about Apocalypse, Odyssey, Torment, Judgement, Onslaught, Legions, Scourge, Mirrodin, Darksteel, Fifth Dawn, Champions of Kamigawa, Betrayers of Kamigawa, Saviors of Kamigawa, or anything else that has been released since.

Firstly, something to keep in mind is that Pox is a difficult deck to play. Some of your potential wins will be very counterintuitive and making the right decision out of three or four seemingly valid choices (repeatedly) can mean the difference between winning and losing. Some literature/random stuff on the subject of Pox...

This one is horribly outdated, but I found it to be educational: http://www.casualplayers.org/article/get.php?action=getarticle&articleid=351

This one is not quite as oudated, but I started it back when the 1.5 banned list had only recently split from the Vintage restricted list (actually, looking at the date it's even older than I thought, as I think the announcement from the split was maybe a week before I started the thread). My theories on Pox have changed somewhat since I wrote that, but it was a start: http://www.casualplayers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14043

Those two should provide enough information to build a Pox deck and test it so that you can fine-tune it until you're comfortable with it. I lost my final decklists of most of my decks, but I do still have a somewhat tuned decklist for this one. Yours will probably vary based on personal preference, metagame, and mistakes you discover that I had made (I was still testing it and the sideboard especially could use some revision, no doubt). Whatever though, it's a start (but read the links I gave you, just to make sure you understand the choices I made).

Pox decklist that may need revisions:
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Pox
4 Diabolic Edict
3 Spinning Darkness
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
3 Chimeric Idol
4 The Rack
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Chrome Mox
19 Swamp

Sideboard:
3 Choking Sands
3 Funeral Charm
3 Dystopia
3 Phyrexian Negator
3 Planar Void

Certainly. The Stasis deck, since Necropotence is totally destroyed and black runs as weak as you say it does, is probably going to be what I end up entering the majority of sanctioned tournaments with.

I really have no basis for constructing a tournament-worthy Stasis deck. I'll look around and see if there have been any successes in tournaments thus far with a Stasis deck. Do you have Tropical Islands? I'm sort of guessing Root Maze might be needed...

Okay then. So, as far as tournament play goes, you estimate that it may be possible to salvage what was the Hatred deck, the Stasis deck, and what was the Discard deck? That's good to hear, I wasn't expecting more than one of the eight that I posted to have any tournament viability in today's game.

I can't make any guarantees. Like I said, the decks that tend to win tournaments a lot are like Sligh, Survival of the Fittest decks, monoblue control, Stompy, Madness, Zoo etc. I know Suicide has had some success as a rogue deck (or it was having some last I checked, at any rate). I am not sure if a Hatred-based deck is best or not. Force of Will might make it a bad choice in this environment, but I haven't tested Suicide-type decks to know much about that (as I said before). I think we can come up with something though.

The Stasis thing I really have no clue about. I haven't played or tested against a Legacy-legal Stasis deck and can't determine the viability of such a deck. We'll just have to work on it and see if we can come up with something strong.

As far as the viability of Pox, I know it's not a tier one/two deck or anything. But I tested it pretty extensively and think it has a decent chance in tournaments. Aggressive decks beat up on it a bit more than control decks, but I think it stands a chance in any matchup. One of my builds was able to do better than 50% against ATS (but I had to scrap that version because it was too vulnerable against aggressive decks).

Now, while we're still considering the possibility of taking those three decks to tournaments, I can make some suggestions as to what might be done with your more casual decks.

Necro: Scrap it and build something else. Some of those cards are still quite good in other casual decks.

Suicide: No comment for now, since we'll probably change it drastically when we try to make it more competitive in Legacy.

Land destruction: I was unable to find the Nether Void build I worked on. My friend did most of the work with that one, but I can remember some of it. First suggestion: Nantuko Shade. It's perfect for your deck. I'd swap out all of your Frozen Shades for Nantuko Shades. Another good newer card for Nether Void decks is Rancid Earth. I'm not sure how well some of your more unorthodox choices (like Necrologia) work in your deck, so I won't make any suggestions regarding those. I think you might want to increase your Swamp-count on this one though.

Graveyard deck: I don't know enough about the deck just from looking at it to tell you what to replace the Sol Ring or Demonic Tutor with. I'm sure you'll think of something. Lotus Petals can be used in almost any deck. If nothing else, you could throw a couple of them in...

Discard: If you opt not to change it into a Pox deck, I have experience with Megrim decks (a lot of us at the CPA do, I'm sure) and can make suggestions for transforming it into a casual Legacy-legal deck.

Monoblue: If you want to build a competitive monoblue deck, there are a lot of options, but none of them will look much like the decklist you've shown us. If you want to just keep this deck as a casual deck and replace the banned cards, one simple change would be -2 banned cards and +2 Force of Will. I'd really go with Mana Leaks or something over the Arcane Denials. I am a fan of Arcane Denial (unlike 99.7% of tournament players), but slow decks don't like card disadvantage.

Stasis: I'm slightly surprised not to see Black Vise in your decklist. Oh well. if we're transforming this into a competitive deck, I suspect there will be a lot of changes (I'm leaning toward Root Maze and Tropical Island being added in).

Generic deck: You can replace those cards with whatever you think works best. I'd add another Dark Ritual and maybe another Quicksilver Amulet and then something else. Maybe an Abyssal Gatekeeper or something silly like that...

Edit: I'm really leaning toward altering your Suicide deck to exclude Hatred. Your opponents in a tournament will almost certainly be using something that can make you pay for using Hatred. I'm also concerned about Suicide's matchup against Sligh. But I still think it has potential. More later...

 

[MonoBlack]

Thanks for the Pox information - I just need to pick up a couple of Chrome Moxes (I really hate the new card format, by the way) and I'll be able to begin playtesting that build.

Stasis: I'm slightly surprised not to see Black Vise in your decklist.

There wasn't room, and I chose to disregard it because I win by decking my opponent anyway. A Vise would be the only damage, and once the Chronotog-Kismet-Stasis combo is active it would be redundant.

Do you have Tropical Islands?

I'm sort of guessing Root Maze might be needed...

Yeah, I've got four of each dual land. I could potentially add four Tropical Islands in place of basic Islands and four Savannahs in place of basic Plains in order to include Root Maze, but I was also considering replacing those plains with three Adarkar Wastes and a City of Brass (I have already replaced three of the plains with Forsaken City and cut the deck to 60 cards since posting the list). The deck's demand for blue mana is always intense because I've got several different Counters in hand at any given time, and not usually enough U to use them all. If I've drawn both I also like to cast Chronotog and Stasis at the same time, after Kismet is on the board, which eats up the U for a Counterspell right there. And then there is the constant need to Impulse before the end of my opponent's turn, and the possibility of Mana Shorting as well. The deck sacrifices a bit of land for more utility, which does have a deleterious impact in this regard.

What do you think about Reset and Meditate in here?

I can't make any guarantees. Like I said, the decks that tend to win tournaments a lot are like Sligh, Survival of the Fittest decks, monoblue control, Stompy, Madness, Zoo etc.

I'd much rather play a rogue deck than a mainstream concoction anyway. The possible diversity in thematic gameplay is one of the primary reasons that I like MTG in the first place.

Edit: I'm really leaning toward altering your Suicide deck to exclude Hatred. Your opponents in a tournament will almost certainly be using something that can make you pay for using Hatred.

If I've used the Hatred it means that my opponent is dead. So it'd have to be something that makes me pay for the Hatred while I am casting it, and this is unlikely due to the preemtive Unmask/Duress that I usually perform prior to dropping myself to one life, or two life, or five life, or whatever the Hatred amount.

I'm also concerned about Suicide's matchup against Sligh. But I still think it has potential. More later...

Yeah, that's an exceptionally rough matchup. Success here, I think, involves a lot of conservative play - envoking suicidal advantage only when it will almost certainly win outright - in combination with a creative sideboard. Even then, though, it will probably be rough.

I know Suicide has had some success as a rogue deck (or it was having some last I checked, at any rate). I am not sure if a Hatred-based deck is best or not. Force of Will might make it a bad choice in this environment, but I haven't tested Suicide-type decks to know much about that (as I said before). I think we can come up with something though.

I'm not too worried about Force of Will, the Hatred deck has Duress and Unmask (especially Unmask) for that reason. As for the viability of that particular card, Hatred, I'm with you as far as uncertainty goes. The deck was really made the consistent killing machine that it was by virtue of the Demonic Consultations. In the absence of those, I just don't know. I will have to playtest with other tutors, gather some performance data to map the new powercurve, and then revew the potential of the deck with that in mind.

Necro: Scrap it

Yep. I have. There was no way to save it, as much as that pains me.

Land destruction: I was unable to find the Nether Void build I worked on. My friend did most of the work with that one, but I can remember some of it. First suggestion: Nantuko Shade. It's perfect for your deck. I'd swap out all of your Frozen Shades for Nantuko Shades.

Thanks! I picked up a set of these. You're right, they're simply superior to the Frozen Shades in every possible way. I was really surprised when I saw the casting cost. Awesome.

Another good newer card for Nether Void decks is Rancid Earth.

Thanks, I've picked up a set of these as well. Great card. However, given the fact that the Shades have a toughness of 1, I would suggest that Rancid Earth be relegated to the sideboard - to be swapped with Rain of Tears only when small creatures are a mainstay of the opposition. Otherwise, you've really got to pay 4 to cast the spell, in addition to any Void costs, if a Shade is on the board (by the time a Shade is on the board, threshold is almost a certainty).

I'm not sure how well some of your more unorthodox choices (like Necrologia) work in your deck, so I won't make any suggestions regarding those.

I have found Necrologia to be pretty good in black decks that do not damage themselves in other ways (like Pox). It's a one use Necropotence, and it isn't restricted. My reasoning is thus; consider - how many times did one really need to activate a Necropotence in order to gain the critical advantage, in terms of boost to the powercurve? I can't speak to the builds of others, but my Necro deck only really needed a single activation after the initial assault - sometimes just two - to make the gap between my curve and my opponent's curve all but insurmountable (barring some kind of awful clump). The key to employing Necrologia to full effect, in my opinion, lies in a slightly larger carddraw per instance than one would tend to use in any given Necropotence situation. If used specifically, and appropriately with respect to the salient variables (current life totals, decks in use, skill level of opponent, current tactical situation), Necrologia can retain nearly all of the power of Necropotence (minus some of the efficiency).

Now, the major failing of this particular land destruction deck (and also, to a lesser extent due to Racking, a historic failing of black hand destruction) is that a person runs him or herself out of held cards quickly - and the topdecks are largely mediocre to the task of anything but maintaining the established malaise. This is a dangerous scenario to be in; clearly less so against control decks, but in no case is it dominance that will consistently threaten anything on the order of tourney wins. Cursed Scroll, of course, capitalizes upon this very scenario, as in classic Pox decks - a potential exception to the rule, but in the Poxless Void deck I would much rather, say, tutor for a Shade that will kill the opponent in two or three attacks than rely on Scroll-pinging and topdeck land destruction in the absence of Pox's significant damage and the applicability of Racks; and the Void deck doesn't even support Scrolls, so it's Spawning Pool (or similar swampcreature, if something better is out now) pinging when possible. Earlygame Shades tend to be Unmask fodder when the hand is not perfect, so they do need to be found later on, and yet Insidious Dreams does not always immediately work in this environment (any turn that you do not directly increase your strength is tantamount to giving your opponent a free Time Walk); Desperate Research won't allow you time to win (summoning sickness); Rhystic Tutor's drawback does not stack with the Void and is therefore easily paid in post-Void midgame; and Diabolic Tutor costs almost as much as Necrologia does - without the accompanying hand refil which establishes board dominance. In the absence of tutors on the order of Consultations or Demonic Tutors, or a series of blue card drawing, Necrologia looks like the most powerful alternative under the Void in that you not only trim your remaining cards to make topdecking the Shade a question of favorable statistics, and totally rearm your held arsenal of suppressants so that keeping the opponent locked down until that Shade appears is a certainty (a position of board dominance), but you also stand a comparatively good chance of Necroing the Shade directly into your hand with draws of seven to nine cards. An earlygame Necro is doubly valuable where vital sideboard additions are concerned, beyond the obvious superiority that a significant card-drawing advantage engenders. After I complete some additional playtesting to gather more mathematical data on the modified powercurve, I had intended to up the Necrologia count to three or four if at all possible. I'm not sure that the deck has much of a consistent chance without it... unless there is some other option embodied in new cards that I'm not yet aware of?

I think you might want to increase your Swamp-count on this one though.

Combined with the Spawning Pools, I've never once run into any lack of B. Once the Void is on the table, it is a simple matter to sink and quake my opponent below that threshold while drawing lands in excess. I've also added a Lake of the Dead now that Sol Ring is gone.

Monoblue: If you want to build a competitive monoblue deck, there are a lot of options, but none of them will look much like the decklist you've shown us. If you want to just keep this deck as a casual deck and replace the banned cards, one simple change would be -2 banned cards and +2 Force of Will. I'd really go with Mana Leaks or something over the Arcane Denials. I am a fan of Arcane Denial (unlike 99.7% of tournament players), but slow decks don't like card disadvantage.

Arcane Denial is really my favorite counterspell. It's only a one card disadvantage, it tends to refil the hand with counters in a counter heavy deck, and it's easy as hell to cast. I wouldn't dream of taking it out of my Stasis deck, for instance, although here you certainly have a point as it is not a needed spell. I do have the Mana Leaks - so that's a possibility. I was also thinking about putting a couple of them into the Stasis deck (which already looks a bit different from original list that I posted) in order to bring the Kismet out faster in the absence of Sol Ring.

 

[Oversoul]

Wow, you make a great case for Necrologia in Nether Void decks. It's a wonder we never tested it before. I wonder if we'd have tried to fit it into our Nether Void deck or not.

I tested a bit with a Hatred-less Suicide black deck that uses cheap damage from things like Flesh Reaver, Plague Spitter, etc. to beat the opponent down. It's definitely not tuned yet, but I can totally see it as a rogue deck when it's finished.

I'll also work on a Hatred-based Suicide black deck, probably using your original deck as a basis, although not having strong tutors will be a problem for the deck (as you mentioned).