Necro restricted in Type I; Mind Twist and Channel unbanned?!?!

Discussion in 'CPA/WOTC Magic Issues' started by rakso, Sep 1, 2000.

  1. rakso New Member

    http://www.wizards.com/dci/announce.asp?dci20000901a

    DCI Banned and Restricted List Announcement
    Announcement Date: September 1, 2000
    Effective Date: October 1, 2000

    Type 1

    Channel is restricted (unbanned)
    Demonic Consultation is restricted
    Mind Twist is restricted (unbanned)
    Necropotence is restricted

    Type 1.5
    (All cards on the Type 1 Banned and Restricted Lists are banned in Type 1.5)

    Demonic Consultation is banned
    Necropotence is banned

    Explanation of Banned and Restricted List Changes

    Type 1 and 1.5

    Restrictions

    Necropotence
    Over the past 3 years, this card has become more and more dominant in the Type 1 format. While many more powerful cards have slowly become restricted, this card remained as the preeminent card drawing engine. Quite simply, the swing this card introduces to the game is on par with several cards that are already restricted.

    Demonic Consultation
    In a format where all the other "tutor" cards are restricted (Demonic, Enlightened, Mystical, etc.), Demonic Consultation stood out as a powerhouse. Especially, since Demonic Consultation was arguably more powerful than many of those other tutors.

    Unbannings

    Keep in mind that we are constantly monitoring all tournament formats, and trying to maintain as many viable deck archetypes (and thus as many cards) as possible.

    Mind Twist and Channel
    When these cards were first banned in 1995, Magic: the Gathering was a different game than it is now. In spite of the many cards that have been restricted, the speed of Type 1 has steadily increased over the years. This increase in speed is the result of the thousands of cards that have been added to Type 1 since Channel and Mind Twist were banned. In fact, Type 1 is fast enough now that these cards, while still powerful, no longer unbalance the game as they once did.

    ------------------------------------------------

    What the heck were they smoking?!?! No Trix is fine, but no Necropotence?!?!

    I really think this one might be ridiculous already. Type I, IMHO, is already ridiculous since it has commons like Crop Rotation and Lotus Petal restricted!
  2. Fire Slinger Vetern CPA Member Pyromananic

    It's a good thing they restricted Crop Rotation

    Turn 1: (Green) Mox, Land. Tap Land, play Mana Vault. Tap Mox, play Crop Rotation. Sac Land, get Tolarian Academy, Win Game.
  3. rakso New Member

    Oh, definitely. But how much would it have hurt to just ban the Academy instead of hitting Crop Rotation, Frantic Search, Lotus Petal, etc., etc.?

    You can use Crop Rotation for other things, and Frantic Search is used by some casual players for reanimation, etc. Hell, Mana Vault was an old casual card!
  4. TomB Administrative Assistant

    Although, to be honest, I can see where the Necro restriction became neccessary with Ivory Tower unrestricted. And I'm always happier when things are unbanned, since I've never seen the point of selling people cards they can't use.

    It looks to me that they're trying to rejuvenate Type 1 again, and they're doing it by enabling a couple of the older cards to return to their former dominance. Beats me whether it'll work, but at least they're trying.

    Looks like Necro won't be in 7th after all! :D
  5. rakso New Member

    Actually, no other deck type even uses Ivory Tower in competitive play. If you took a look at the Magic Invitational decks, did you see a Necrodeck running Ivory Tower? Nah. Mike Long's Necrodeck was commonly considered the most lethal anti-control and anti-combo deck ever, but it didn't even run Drain Life. :)

    I can see where they're going with this, but again, killing an entire deck type to kill Trix? It's just like what they did in Extended, except they killed an entire color to kill Trix! :)
  6. dw51688 The Mad Scientist

    What is the DCI doing.




    "You forgot, we are the DCI. We can do whateva the hell we want to. Let's ban a bunch of cards and make everyone pissed off" -DCI
  7. Apollo Bird Boy

    Oh my gosh. I'm stunned. I can understand Necro and Consult.

    But unbanning Channel and Mind Twist? Arguably two of the most broken card ever printed? Remember when Twist was restricted, and many games came down to who could get their Twist and force it through first? Geez. These are not two cards I want to see again.

    I played in a tournament a while back with no restrictions whatsoever, except the 4 of a card thing. I couldn't bring myself to include more than the one Twist in my deck. But with Demonic and Vampiric Tutors, it was the most hated card in the tournament. I won. I played in a group game afterward and was immediately slaughtered because I was the "Mind Twist guy."
  8. Thrash Golem New Member

    no stop the insanity.

    now everyone can channel stream of life!

    or first turn mind twist for 0

    the avatars are all so good, i think avatar of hope is next to be banned. you dont like how they got rid of demonic consultation, use divining witch
  9. Purple_jester New Member

    Hmm... Well, I'm still going to play with Necropotence. 4 of them. I'm a casual player and I don't play Trix. So there. I'm keeping my Skulls.

    If anyone out there wants to get rid of their Skulls, I'll gladly buy them for whatever piddly price you want to sell them.

    <grumble, grumble>

    I don't agree about the Channel thing, and Mind Twist is just crazy. But fine. I'll put in my single Twist back in my discard. But I still have my principles. Never Twist for more than 3 cards. Otherwise, you're considered a total jerk.

    <grumble, grumble>

    Couldn't they just restrict or ban the Illusions of Grandeur? This is the very reason why I think they should just ban combos instead of specific cards.

    <grumble, grumble>

    I WILL concede the Demonic Consultation. Regarless of the drawback, it IS a Tutor in another form, and should be restricted. I'm just surprised it tooke them this long to realize that.
  10. Ferret CPA Founder, Slacker

    You know, every four months or so our friends in the DCI put out their lists on which cards are good and which cards are bad and which ones they'd like to only see one of at a time and I always laugh when I see the results: It's always a mixed bag of people screaming "My best deck is ruined! How will I ever win now???" or "Hooray! His best deck is ruined, I might actually be able to win now..."

    Fun for the whole family :)

    -Ferret

    "...of course, being a casual player I have no restricted or banned lists..."
  11. rakso New Member

    Yeah, people scream a lot if they just bought a card before it was restricted.

    But in this case, there may be reasons, IMHO to scream about logic than about how you are personally affected.

    I'll emphasize the casual context in my arguments here, okay?

    1) Necropotence
    I've played the deck since ICE AGE. And it's surely no "god" deck. It can be beaten. In fact, it can be beaten by creature and weenie decks. It's the control and combo decks the Skull cheeses. Purple_jester, would you agree that a Goblin player is less scared of the Skull where a Draw-Go player would shake in his boots?

    The problem, IMHO, is that it was used to boost COMBO decks. On Beyond Dominia, one proposal was to simply errata Illusions of Grandeur, so that if you lose control, you lose 20 life. Wouldn't that be a heckuva lot simpler than gutting one of the most classic archtypes ever?

    In fact, what becomes more powerful now that Necro and combo are gutted? Why, control decks, perhaps! Things like the classic "The Deck" which FREAKING COST HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS TO PUT TOGETHER! I don't think that's fair on casual players (even casual players would have to play by the official rules outside of the old familiar play group, you know).

    I happen to play that expensive deck, but I don't think it's fair. Neither does it control a deck that got too good. Nor does it make any new deck type possible.

    2) Demonic Consultation
    Main drawback: It can't fetch restricted cards and it can hurt a deck that has one.

    So a lot of the decks that used this were mono black decks. Even the T1.5 decks that splashed black for Consultation on e-league didn't look so broken. As for Trix, if you just fix the combo, then that part of the discussion is moot.

    I could agree with this one, I guess. But Randy Buehler's early Extended Necrodeck looked pretty fun without being that broken.

    3) Channel
    It adds a big cheese element to the kid's red/green. It's not a danger per se due to Force of Will, Lightning Bolt and Duress, but it's cheesy. What new deck type does this make possible, too?

    4) Mind Twist
    With Duress, Hymn and Unmask, this might not be THAT bad in mono black. Some people on Beyond Dominia argued that there's so much efficient discard already in print, anyway.

    But note that Mind Twist can be splashed in any deck that can add black to its mana base. One black mana. That's all you need. Counter deck? Discard deck? Creature deck? Just add one black mana.

    You don't even need to use Dark Rituals or anything. Hell, just cast this mid game against an opponent without counters.

    Punch line? So what IS the logic behind this shake-up if it doesn't kill a crazy deck and/or make new ones possible? (Again, on the premise that they should have just errata'd Illusions rather than killing Necro and Dark Ritual!)
  12. Purple_jester New Member

    Heh. My friend plays a Type I goblin-burn. Always has. (His name is Ramon aka. "Mon"). His "Mon's Suicidal Goblin Raiders" deck and my Necro-weenie deck are about 1/1 on each other. Half the time, when he gets a jump on me, I don't even bother casting the Necro anymore.

    So, yes. I agree that Necro is weaker against weenies and burn. The fast damage shuts down the effectiveness of the Necropotence.
  13. rakso New Member

    And I'd just like to add that what you said is true even with unrestricted Ivory Tower!
  14. godhand3 New Member

    I can pull out my channel/fireball combo(oh no)

    I think restricting/banning commons is crap. Lotus petals are quite easy to pull in a booster yet you can only use one, even though it is less powerful than its higher known card. Banning/restricting cards is a hot topic, why tempt us with awesome cards and take them away. well there's always casual play.

    hey jester, banning combos might be a good idea. Like you could have a channel in your deck but no fireball or something like that. Crop rotation but no academy. But it would make the cards a lot less popular
  15. Purple_jester New Member

    Well Godhand, the banning of combos shouldn't prevent you from putting two combo cards in a deck together. My long-preached idea is to ban those cards from being used simultaneously. You can have those 2 or 3 cards together in your deck, but can't use them in that balance-breaking combo. This will prevent other deck types that use those cards from becoming non-viable, while those not-so-fair decks will be forced to look for other ways to win.

    For example:
    Hatred may not be used with Dark Ritual.
    Channel may not be used with any red X-burn.
    Donate may not be used with Illusions of Grandeur.

    Do you see what I'm getting at? The first example would allow Dark Ritual to be used in Extended again. The second example would prevent the excessive abuse feared from the otherwise useful Channel. And the last example would allow other Necropotence decks to again be dominant.

    Wizards has a huge slew of rulings, so a similarly large list of banned combos shouldn't be too hard to come up with.

    Hmm... Methinks I should post this topic in a new thread...
  16. Apollo Bird Boy

    I saw a Necro tournament report on the internet a little while ago (I think after the last extended PT; it was the player that came in 2nd, I think). It said something like "In the old days, Necro was scared to death of weenies. But now, it's gotten so good that I gave a little cheer whenever I saw a first-turn mountain (referring to Sligh, of course). A good Necro deck can usually tear apart weenies. As long as you don't take out the Skull, which seems like the right thing to do but isn't, you'll be fine. You can make 'em discard a few things, get out a blocker, then play the Skull and start draining. As long as you live to the fifth turn, which you usually will, you'll win.

    You can find that report hidden somewhere in the Dojo archives, but I'm too lazy to find it right now.
  17. krichaiushii New Member

    Cool, now I can legally Channel-Twist your hand away!

    MOOOWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
  18. Ura Feline Lord of the Pit

    All I can say is that its about time they finally clipped necro's wing. Its the second most efficient drawing card in the game IMHO right after Ancestral Recall, and followed by Bargain, both of which are restricted and.or banned in various formats.
    Its not just about Trix either, Necro has ALWAYS been an overpowered card, ever since black summer. I just wish they hadn't killed Black in extended before making this decision.

    The consult I could care less about, I never used them much to begin with, but I guess thet are a suicide tutor so to speak.

    As for the Channel and Mind Twist restrictions. I don't like having alot of cards banned, but the twist really does deserve it. I have one in my discard deck even when they weren't un-banned, and eeeewww, they're just brutal and game swinging, and black has lots of ways to say fetch.
    The Channel is no big deal to me. So it makes channel/ball useable again, BFD. Its only a super big threat if you either have hundreds of dollars of fast mana (namely P9 cards) or you wait till turn 3 or 4 to do it IF you draw the channel and haven't taken much damage yet. Any color can deal with it then in some way.

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