Kevin Chen's Article

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Baron Sengir

Guest
Okay, it seems our first critics have arrived. The misinformed Mr. Chen seems to have it in his mind that we are claiming to speak for every magic player in the world. I just sent out a rebuttal saying that we speak for ourselves and our members and addressed his complaints.

Here it is:

An interesting article to say the least. It would appear Mr. Chen has missed the point of the CPA entirely.

First off, let me say I'm offended by your definition of a casual player but you are entitled to your opinions.

I guess we'd define a casual player as anyone who plays mostly for fun. Not the guy out there making headlines in tourneys or who gets front page priority on the Dojo and every other website. The other guys. The ones who get ignored a lot. We are the non-protour players. Who the hell cares what demographic we fall into? Is that really that important to you? We don't care. If you define yourself as a casual player you are welcome to join.

Our members and casual players in general are a diverse lot. That is great in my opinon. If we just had the 'freestyle' players alliance or the 'legalist' players alliance we wouldn't have the depth that we do now. We have people from all walks of Magic, all walks of life from South Dakota to Brazil. People who just want to be heard. Specialization can cause stagnation, and stagnation equals death to an organization.

We're not about representing a demographic. We've never claimed to. We are an organization of causal players. We We play mostly for fun but on occasion may go to the odd tourney. We're not trying to speak for every single magic player in the world, just the ones who wish to be heard. We've never claimed to speak for anyone but the Casual Players Alliance and all its members. If you're not a member, we don't speak for you. Simple as that.

We want to cover any issue that might affect a casual player. Most people play by the official rules and use the eratta WotC issues. Some people may feel there are too many sets released a year. Whatever the issue, if it is important enough to our members we will make it known to WotC.

The CPA is a democratic group in which all members will get a chance to voice their opinions on topics and majority rules as far as our stance on those topics.

Mr. Chen seems to be nitpicking here, in my opinion. Our name is the Casual Players Alliance. That is not a declaration that all casual players are represented by our organization. Far from it. I will state again so there is no confusion: We represent ourselves and our members. End of list. Next time, read the article a bit more thoroughly. No where did we say we would speak for every single player in the world.

If you have any questions, or would like to join, e-mail us at the Casual_Players_Alliance@hotmail.com. We will try to answer any questions or concerns about representation that you may have.

Thank you for your time.

I remain
Anthony Scott
Proud Member, Casual Players Allianc
 
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nekrataal

Guest
I read Mr. Chen's article as well and was quite displeased. I think your article should clear up any confusion these guys might have with us. Good job.

-nekrataal
"The Donate Hater"
 

Ferret

Moderator
Staff member
I kind of expected this to appear on The Dojo. I have nothing against the site, but The Dojo has always been "Pro Player country".

I don't want to divide the world into "Us" and "Them", but I fear others might do it anyway. We're just going to have to learn to deal w/ it I guess...

-ferret

"...again, nice reply, Tony!"
 

TomB

Administrator
Staff member
Did anybody catch Kevin Chen's reply to your reply Tony? He seems to be taking issue with our taking issue with his taking issue with us, and claims he wasn't taking issue with the CPA in the first place! How could anyone read his original article and NOT know it was aimed directly at the CPA! It's impossible to miss!

Does it seem to you guys like this Chen character is just spoiling for an arguement? Or do you think maybe he's delusional? Any ideas?

TomB
CPA Member
"I do not teach. I simply reveal."
-Daudi, Femeref Tutor
 
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nekrataal

Guest
LOL

We seem to have angered Mr. Chen a bit with the letter. I think he might have taken it a bit too personally. He claims he had the article in writing since 6th came out. But it is a bit funny that he released his article a day after ours went up on the dojo.

And what is up with him being against our group? He nitpicked us even more in the response when he said that we were loosely defined and counterproductive. He thinks that we being Democratic won't accomplish anything. Must be a communist.

Well, I think we may have pissed off our first Pro Player/wannabe. :)

-nekrataal
"AAMPA -- Angry Arguing Magic Players Assoc."
 

TomB

Administrator
Staff member
Actually, nekrataal, he said he "had been THINKING about writing an article like this ever since Bill Rose's letter..."

Judging by what he wrote, it sounds to me like he should have given it a little more thought.

TomB
CPA Member
"I do not teach. I simply reveal."
-Daudi, Femeref Tutor
 
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Baron Sengir

Guest
Guys:

I have just sent out a retort to Mr. Chen's retort. Here it is:

Mr. Chen:

I did take your comments personally since I felt they were an attack on casual players in general rather than an attack on our organization. You said, and I quote, 'I personally define a CP as "one who does not take the game seriously enough to read the comprehensive rulebook."' This offends me as a casual player since I have read and re-read the tiny print on that rulebook many times and your definition of a casual player is basically calling them lazy. Excuse me if I take offense at that.

As for what I refer to as nitpicking, I am not talking about the opinions on 6e that you neglected to mention until now. If that was your intention, why did you not mention these things before? All of a sudden these original intentions come up out of the blue. Instead you take issue with a member of our group and make no mention of these 6e concerns. IMO, that sounds like you have a problem with us.

Anyway, when I refer to nitpicking, I am talking instead about your need to divide casual players up into groups and categorize them. What's the point? Of course the term casual players is general! Again, you do not seem to be grasping what we stand for. We WANT diversity of members. If we wanted everyone to be the same we'd break it down into tidy little chunks like the Amatueur Legalist Freestyler Alliance. That's not what we're about.

You also don't seem to understand how a democracy works. You know, sometimes the Republicans get a vote to go their way, sometimes the Democrats do. We have to face facts: We'll never get everyone to agree on a subject. This may upset some members and that is understandable. This is different from letting the Pro's make decisions for us (and it boggles my mind that you even have to ask this question) in that WE ARE MAKING THE DECISION FOR OURSELVES. We may not always get our way but at least we get a say. The casual players who join the CPA can have a vote. Sometimes an issue may go their way, sometimes not. In my opinion, we represent the best chance the "nondescript group of people" in the CPA have of being heard. The dojo is great and all that but it does not take the time to listen to the random player. It couldn't possibly, it's too big. That's where we step in.

We are about being able to voice your opinion. We can be heard. We can tell WotC that a majority of our members feel this way on whatever. We can get heard. That is how this is different. Someone else is not deciding what we should or shouldn't feel. We are.

"Isn't the CPA counterproductive, because those who need to use a strong voice the most are the ones being denied the opportunity to do so?" Comments like these make me think you don't understand our intentions. The CPA provides the strong voice those being denied the opportunity to do so need. We are the outlet for people who want to be able to let WotC know how they feel. I think it's a lot more stifling to have one or two pro players decide how the rest of the Magic playing world feels about an issue than to have a representative chunk of the that world voicing their opinions. Evidently, many people agree with us. We're growing by leaps and bounds. Should you require proof of that, I can easily have the members of the CPA write to you, announcing our existance.

"Would it not be in their best interest to stay solo and submit a front page article to The Dojo that brings up some significant points, rather than being stifled by their own support group?" Don't make me laugh. I can't tell how many times I have submitted an article voicing my opinion on a pertinent subject to thedojo or any other magic site, only to have it completely ignored while some pro player rambles on about his late night trading sessions at the latest GenCon or whatever. We don't stifle anything. If a member has an opinion, however contrary to what anyone may feel, THEY ARE ENCOURAGED TO VOICE IT. We need to hear all sides of the issue.

"In your reply, you stated "I guess we'd define a casual player as anyone who plays mostly for fun." and that is exactly the problem, IMO." Yes, I said that and I stick by it. That is my definition of a casual player. You later go on to say that we "risk misrepresenting your members and non-members who call themselves "casual" players." Maybe you can explain that one to me since I don't seem to ever recall saying that we even considered representing every single magic player. How egomaniacal do you think we are? I'll repeat it again: WE REPRESENT ONLY OUR MEMBERS. If you are not a member, you are not represented. If you want to be represented, join up. If not, don't. We speak for no one other than those who want us to. Just because we say we are casual players does not mean we represent every casual magic player in the world. We are a group of casual players and our name represents that. Nothing more, nothing less.

"Although you pride yourself on your diversity, it doesn't help anyone to be part of a group that does not have a predefined stance on at
least some of the issues, because your members will always be split ..." Again, I disagree. Our issues are what our members think they should be and our opinions are our own. Right now we are voting to gauge opinions on the Waylay eratta, the sixth edition card set and the topic of whether or not there are too many sets released annually. We will NOT set forth an opinion criteria you have to meet in order to express yourself in the CPA. THAT is stifling of opinions and, IMO, will kill any group. Our diversity of opinion doesn't weaken us. Far from it. It enables both sides of an issue to see the other and helps us to make more informed decisions.

" ... and whatever the majority of your members think will subsequently reflect to a certain degree on _all_ casual players." Why? We are not the Alliance of Every Casual Player. We are the Casual Players Alliance. The very title of our organization implies nothing more than the fact that our members are casual players.

What if I were to call myself and my cousin the Tony Scott Alliance? Sure, we will clearly state in an obscure press release that we don't speak for the Tony Scotts of the world, but is the title not misleading?" Now you're just being silly. Using the name of a person or a nationality is a completely different ballpark. If you take it to that personal of a level, there may be confusion. We speak for ourselves and we are casual players. If it'll make you sleep better at night, I could e-mail WotC and let them know 'we only speak for our members. K. Chen was not involved in any way.' I wonder how the dojo enjoys being referred to as an 'obscure press release.'

Open your eyes. We did not only get press on the dojo, we were heard by readers of brainburst, e-league and newwave. Read Tom Skalski's article on e-league. Check out the 'obscure press release' on brainburst and newwave. We are being heard by many people who are sick of being ignored and we are accomplishing something. Once we are fully operational with a website (yes, we're not quite completed yet. Feel free to drag us down for that if you'd like) we'll be ready to go. This thing has taken off faster than I or anyone involved in this from the start could ever have guessed.

"If you send a message to Wizards of the Coast under the guise of the Casual Players Alliance, does that not imply to them that a representative sample of casual players agrees with what you have to say?" No, it merely states the opinions of our group.


"Mr. Scott, I have no quarrel with you or the CPA." I have none with you. I am defending the honor of a group that has so much potential for good that I hate to see it drug down because someone doesn't like our name. I apologize if you feel I was patronizing in any way. That was not my intention. I ask that you _understand_ what we're trying to accomplish here. I respect your opinion and I do understand what your concerns are. We will make it know that we represent o
 
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bane

Guest
That was dead on, man. At least we've got a very competent leader, or group of leaders. We will be heard, I'm sure of it...

.oO(bane)Oo.
CPA member
"He casually craves only one commodity..."
P.S. - when you get a mission statement pounded out, do you mind if I were to post it on my web page? Thanks...
 

TomB

Administrator
Staff member
That is an incredible piece of work.

If people don't get it now, they're too dense to see the sense.

Thank you, Tony

TomB
CPA Member
"I do not teach. I simply reveal."
-Daudi, Femeref Tutor
 

Ed Sullivan

CPA Founder, Web Guy
Staff member
Great reply Tony. Kevin chen just doesn't seem to WANT to get it.

Anyway, where's that Mortal Kombat music now? :)

-mike
 

Ferret

Moderator
Staff member
This was bound to happen. I'm surprised it happened this fast, but everything's been moving at close to the speed of light lately.

I didn't want it to become "us" against "them" - the basic reason I didn't want to be on The Dojo, but it might come to that - but, well, there are more of us and when it all comes down to it, neither of us really cares what the other is doing, so we should be able to just stay out of each other's ways - with any luck :|

-ferret

"...who are you..."
 
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Baron Sengir

Guest
I agree that this was bound to happen. An alliance of casual players threatens the authority of the pros. They no longer will be the only voices that get heard. I think Mr. Chen might be a little scared.

If it comes down to us against them, I guess that happens. Ferret hit the nail right on the head. We should be able to stay out of each other's ways.

I remain
The Baron
anxious to get going
 
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ben

Guest
All right,

First of all, Kevin Chen’s article was not:

1. Meant to discredit the CPA
2. Trying to keep people from joining the CPA

It was, however, directed at us. I believe that he was warning us with the usage of our words, and the name of our organization. He does not want more confusion as to what a “casual player” is, and what it means to be one. Now I understand that we represent /only our members/, but with a name like the CPA, to the uninformed reader, it can be taken to mean all casual players. Just as if Mr. Chen formed the AAMPA, I might easily confuse that he speaks for /all/ the Asian-American magic players, even if, in fact he only speaks for his members. He does not want our organization’s name to become misleading.

In his original article, he was doing what I thought was a good idea, which was trying to define the term “casual player”. As we all have our own stereotypes about the term, he was looking for a way to solidify exactly what someone meant when they use the term “casual player”, either to describe themselves, or someone else. He did not mean that we should all go and form our own groups, but that it would be an efficient way for us to identify what someone meant when they call themselves, or someone else “casual”.

I also do not believe that Mr. Chen was trying to form an us/them scenario, he just had a few concerns and misconceptions about what the CPA stands for, and what it is meant to do. Also, I believe that he understands what Democracy is, at least as well as any of us do. And yes, there is merit to what he says, as it is in a Democracy, some people will simply /not/ get what they want, as it does depend on what the majority is looking for, even if that majority is uninformed.

Granted, I believe that the AAMPA bit at the end was in bad taste, but he felt that he had been patronized, and was responding to that with a little patronization of his own.

I think we should try to work with Mr. Chen, as opposed to seeing him as the “them” in a confrontation. Most of his points are valid, especially:

“I have been thinking about writing an article like this ever since Bill Rose's Letter on Sixth Edition, in which he stated that the changes to the ruleset were being made for the benefit of the "casual" player. Apparently, he believes that casual players are unwilling to learn the complexities of Magic, including Interrupts and how to correctly handle a Nekrataal.”

Which scares me as much as it does him. If Bill Rose does not know what a “casual player” is, how is anyone else to? This means that if we call ourselves “casual players” we are setting a precedence in what a “casual player” is, and how involved they are in Magic, irregardless of who we speak for, we /appear/ to speak for all “casual players”. Mr. Chen just wants to make sure that we won’t be confusing people.

Well, this seemed to go a little longer then I wanted, but I hope you guys understand what I think on this issue.

Ben
CPA member
 

Ferret

Moderator
Staff member
Well, I like the idea of helping to define what a "casual player" is. I hope that it can clear up this for people like Mr Chen, Mr Rose, and whoever might care.

Basicaly, I like to think we're people who don't feel the need to put every "broken" card in print into our decks, don't mind if we win on a turn later than two, and just want to HAVE FUN w/ the game (yes, it's just a game!) of Magic.

That's why I'm here, that's why I'm voicing my opinion. I want WotC to know that us, their financial majority, won't sit idly back as they make decisions that affect us and the game we love...

...we may hurt a few people's feelings along the way, but nobody said change was ever painless...

-ferret

"...What do you want?"
 
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ben

Guest
Here I go again…


First off, I though Mr. Chen’s response to Tony’s post was well-mannered and not meant to take jabs at anything or anyone. If you read it closely, he considers himself a “casual player”, but I believe that he is worried about an organization that is trying to represent too much.

Second, there is no good guys/bad guys. Just people with different opinions. I feel that Mr. Chen would like to have an organization such as this, but I believe that he is worried about having his voice drowned out, or misrepresenting a demographic.

On the other hand, if we all go off and form our own organization, WotC will never listen to any of us.

We need to find a balance between these two situations, and I think that Mr. Chen was attempting to make the first step towards it. He may have gone a little too far, but the pendulum swings both ways.

At least one other person has expressed concern at our apparent lack of focus. (http://www.thedojo.com/b993/bif.990805sro.shtml)

Now if you read his article, he discusses what I feel would be a good idea, and is indeed what we are trying to accomplish. We are trying to give WotC ideas, and if push comes to shove, we either boycott WotC products, or at least severely cut back on our purchases of their products. This means that we will end up acting as a sort of Union. We give WotC money, and in exchange we would like certain criteria met. IMHO, this sounds like the best way to go in order to get WotC to listen to us.

I propose that our focus should be:
Creating a better environment to play Magic.
This includes, but is not limited to:
-Changing the schedule of set releases
-Issuing errata, or banning certain cards
-Removing errata, or unbanning certain cards
-Changing the price of booster packs
-Changing tournament rules or formats

Well, it’s a broad list, but I think we will need it in order to change Magic.

Also, I agree with Ferrit’s description of what a “casual player”. Someone who will not sacrifice their enjoyment of the game in order to win. This means that I do not always put all the broken cards in my deck, even if this means that my deck is inferior. This also means that I don’t mind losing to my opponent after a long game, or if I have made several blatant mistakes.

Unfortunately, this begs the question, what do you find enjoyable about the game? If you find winning the only enjoyment of Magic, then you probably will put all the broken cards in your deck. For me, the enjoyment is sitting down with a few friends, socializing about our lives, and just playing the game. I think my other enjoyment comes from the social aspect of Magic. The ability to talk to your opponent while you are playing is more fun then winning ever will be.

Well, I hope I have given you guys some ideas….

Ben
CPA member
“…it’s not what do you want, but how much do you want it?”
 
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nekrataal

Guest
All righty,

What I meant was that Mr. Chen put a lot of unnecessary jabs into his response. He seems to be taking our group in a sarcastic and negative manner. Thats all.

That is OK for him to do, though. He is entitled to his opinions and beliefs. Its just that when people start analyzing our group so deeply in our infancy, we may begin to get a lot of bad press. The articles I have seen pop up concerning our group are largely complaining we have no focus and are somewhat negative.

Whatever.

Our focus is to get Wizards of the Coast's attention. It has been from the get go. All the things that ben has brought up shouldn't be our focus, but our ~issues~ categories. I do feel ben's ideas were very well thought through, though.

All members are free to bring up any issue they want, we then vote on them as a majority. All people that voted for the majority can feel free to send their emails about the issue to Wizards with "CPA Member" in the signature. That is our only real focus and I feel that it is fine.

I may be wrong, please prove me so. :)

-nekrataal
"what the $#@! they turned Waylay back into a scrubs card"
 
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Baron Sengir

Guest
Well, ben, I just want to say that it is great to have you as a member. I mean this. Anyone who can write a well-thought-out piece like you did definitely has a home in the CPA.

I have yet to understand what the big deal is over the definition of a casual player. Most of the members of this organization call themselves casual players. That should be enough. We are non-protour players. So what if all our members are diverse?

I also agree with Ferret's description of a casual player. I think he hit the nail right on the head. As for your issues, I believe that once we get up and running, we will be tackling a set much like yours.

The one thing we must remember, though, is that this product belongs to WotC. It would be in their best interests to listen to us, IMO, but they are in charge. They must issue the eratta or remove it, they must decide about basic set frequency. Our goal is to decide how a majority of our members feel and to inform WotC. We will tell them that 80% of our members feel this way about yadda yadda or whatever.

The whole purpose of this organization is to help WotC preserve this game. We want to be heard and we should be. If WotC can please their largest buying group, they should be doing well for a long long time.

I remain
The Baron

Still searching for All Canadian Beef Girl
 

TomB

Administrator
Staff member
It seems to me, everyone, that Mr. Chen gives lie to what he is saying from the start, when he claims his initial article wasn't targetting our group in the first place. Then, instead of allowing Tony to rebut his statements and let it lie, he launches into another tirade attempting to invalidate every point Tony made. By reacting in such a vicious manner, it seemed to me he was trying to ignite this very debate.

I hate to repeat myself again, but here goes:

My understanding of this group was that we would consider ourselves to be non-exclusive, all inclusive, everybody together now. We would, as a group, express our opinions by suggesting topics, debate the pros and cons, and vote. The results of said vote would be forwarded to WotC, where (hopefully) someone would note that we, as representatives of casual players everywhere, say we think this, or that would be good for the game. The bigger our organization, the more WotC will take us seriously, and the more we will actually represent casual players everywhere.

Of course I know that not every casual player has internet access, and will join up with us even if they do. But I think we WOULD be a representative slice of our "demographic", and that by being as persistent as possible we would become the alternative voice to the voice of the pros, in WotC's ears.

I personally think Tony's right. I think pro wannabe's like Mr. Chen, and Mr. Sky Winslow Roy (who at least had the garbonzos to reply directly to the original message) ARE scared. I think they feel that we, by providing an alternative venue to voice dissenting opinions over some of the wacky decisions WotC makes, are somehow threatening the system, and that the system must be protected at all costs.

The game is what must be protected, and that's all we're trying to do. By opening up these things for debate we will enable the masses to at least FEEL like they're being heard.

Oh, and by the way, this whole debate with these narrow-minded guys like Mr. Chen, and Mr. Roy is absolutely terrific for getting the word out about us. The more we can go back and forth with him on the Dojo the more people will have the opportunity to see the light. This can be a very good thing.

TomB
CPA Member
"I do not teach. I simply reveal."
-Daudi, Femeref Tutor
 
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bane

Guest
You know what would be great? If Mr. Chen was turned to our side (Come to the dark side,,,,wait a sec, WE'RE the good guys =] ). I think it would be cool. Just a thought...

.oO(bane)Oo.
CPA member
www.stormloader.com/millsfinest
 
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