It's a conspiracy, I tell you...

[Dune Echo]

Well, I was down loading the latest Oracle pages for every set and decided to look up the other Waylay-type card, Tidal Wave. Now, call me crazy, but WHAT THE F*** IS GOING ON! The Wave token, now counts as a Wall! They are trying to make sure you cannot use any end of turn tricks at all! What's up with this whole "6th Edition will open up new strategic opportunities and plays." and then "Wait, that's not how the card worked before. Good Lord, Blue and White cannot have power cards that aren't only Type 1 legal, can they! CHANGE IT, CHANGE IT!" It's a conspiracy, I tell you...

-Dune Echo

... and we have to fight it. I mean what's so frickin' wrong with Lion's Eye Diamond actually being useful? It's a rare ain't it? We're casual players for god's sake! Do I look like I'm bleeding Lotuses?

 

[JF]

Hi DuneEcho.
Wellcome to our party of confusion!

I had a look at the Oracle too. Guess what I have found!
Argothian Enchantress has got an errata! Yes, the poor Enchantress had been much to weak. Befor it had been necessary to sucessfully cast an enchantment spell, in the meantime the announcement allone is enough to draw a card!
Read the Oracle text. Read the newest version of the D'Angelos card rules! Both are the same!
The next errata which had not been announced somewhere else. I guess it is the worst of all.

What does that mean? You will have to go through the whole Oracle and compare every card in your deck to be sure your deck is working the same way it did before. What a surprise at the next tournament! In my imaginary ear I can hear the cry: JUDGE! My opponent (its me) is using his XYZ in a wrong way! Game loss!

Please tell me: Is it my paranoia about the masses of errata or is it WotC (=DCI) who acts not acceptable? 6E rules, what a progress.

On another place here at CPA I have asked where I can find the errata about Aether Flash which had been discussed there. After searching randomly through the Oracle I found the Enchantress errata! What a surprise.

Ahm, yes. The Verduran Enchantress has got the same errata!

Have a nice tournament!
JF

 

[Zadok001]

Dune, you need to read your cards more carefully. Tidal Wave was always a wall. Go grab the original printing of the card (I have one in my hand right now) and read it. It says:

Put a Wave token into play. Treat this token as a 5/5 blue creature that counts as a Wall. Bury the token at the end of any turn.

No errata was issued for that one. 6th rules are messed, and the errata is a pain in the ass, but that particular cards in no problem.

Also, the royally messed up 6th edition rules had a slight change in templating which forced the change in the Enchantress. Under the new (sic) templating, "play" means exactly what "successfully cast" used to mean. "Announce" means what "play" used to mean (I think, I could be wrong on that count).

This really sucks, all things considered. The Tidal Wave thing is np, but this crap about making "play" mean "successfully cast?" Raise your hand if you didn't understand the difference between these two terms before (and if I see any raised hands, I will hunt you down and beat you about the head and shoulders with a revised rulebook). Why the hell did WotC have to change those terms? To shorten the text????? WTF?

--Zadok001, aka Greater Good fanatic
CPA Member
"We have more sprouts than they have hands."

 

[Dune Echo]

Zadok, I really thought that the Wave token was just a regular creature. Damn. Okay, it's still a conspiracy I tell you!

 

[JF]

Hi Zadok001.

You'r wellcome at our party of confusion too.
Now we are three at least - but I guess we are more

Here is the original Oracle text of Argothian Enchantress:
Argothian Enchantress:
Info: Color=Green Type=Creature - Enchantress Cost=1G US(R1)
Text(US+errata): 0/1. ; ˜this˜ can’t be the target of spells or abilities. ;
Whenever you play an enchantment spell, draw a card. [Oracle 99/05/01]
The ability triggers when you announce an Enchantment or Enchant <something>
spell. [D’Angelo 99/05/01]

Here is the original Oracle text of Verduran Enchantress:
Info: Color=Green Type=Creature - Wizard Cost=1GG ABUR456(R1)
Text(6th): 0/2. Whenever you play an enchantment spell, you may draw a
card.
The ability is a triggered ability (see Rule A.4). Whenever you announce an
enchantment spell, you immediately get the option of drawing a card as
part of the triggered ability. [D’Angelo 99/05/01]
Does not trigger on the moving of an enchantment from one permanent to
another. [D’Angelo 95/07/25]
Does trigger on enchantments that are cast as instants.
[Duelist Magazine #16, Page 28]
Note - In Fifth Edition (and before) this card was of creature type
Enchantress.

Convinced?
Confused?

Please tell me!

Nice greetings
JF

 

[JF]

Sorry for needing two replys, I forgot something important.

Read the following rules text (new since 6E) for spell timing:

T.4 - Step 1: Announcing a Spell or Ability
T.4.1 - This is also called "playing" a spell or ability.
[D’Angelo 99/05/01]
T.4.2 - Announcing a spell or ability can be charted out like this:
[CompRules 99/04/23]
a) Announce the spell or ability to be played and put it on the stack.
b) If the spell or ability is modal (see Rule G.24), choose the mode.
c) If the spell or ability has an {X} in the mana cost, the value for X is chosen.
d) Targets (if any) are chosen. See Rule G.39.
e) If targets are affected differently, choose how each target is affected. This includes dividing up counters and damage.
f) Pay all costs. See Rule G.6. Make any choices for alternative costs at this time.

Let it settle! Read it again.

With any one Enchantress in play each of your enchantments in hand gets cycling <0>!
Why? First you annonce - you draw a card. Then you do not pay the casting cost!
Simple, stupid, but in full conformity with the rules!

I can only repeat: Have a nice next tourney!
6E and the errata are really helping to understand Magic and to have more fun!


JF

 

[Waubers]

MY GOD!

If this is indeed correct this could make opalescense replenish decks unstopable! Any rules judge who thinks about it will agree. Here's my next question....do we speak up on it? I have an enchantress deck that used opal-replenish as a back up but now I just overhauled it this morning using the free cycling biz from the enchantress and when I play tested it I milled 12 enchantments on turn 2! By turn 3 I
was able to replensih 18 ( I milled 6 more on
turn 3) enchantments into play including opalescence! My deck went off on turn 3! I don't think thats ever happend before. If the pro's get a hold of this opal-replenish enchantress will womp in type II especially since all the underlings are building anti-artifact and stroke/bargain decks! This discovery worries me that we will have a waylay fiasco again. Oie vey my achin' head!

Waubers

This is kind of Ironic, the CPA discovers the ultimate new tech for type II tournament action!

 

[Ferret]

OH NO! Soon zee pro tour spies will read zees message and the world will be theirs to toy weeth! We must destroy all evidenc of eet! I will print it out and hide it in my Thieving Magpie statuette...no one will find it there...

<don't mind me - it's just sleep deprivation again>

-ferret

"this is the stuff nightmares are made of..."

 

[Waubers]

r u beingink sarcastic? There was no little at the ed so I couldn't tell.

Waubers

 

[Zadok001]

OMG! Tell you this is a joke! That makes enchatresses totally unstoppable! Turn 2 wins, EASY!

I need to send some e-mails.

--Zadok001, aka Greater Good fanatic

 

[Zadok001]

I see Bannings on their way, Errata galore, a mess of rules changes! I am Nostradamus! I am VERY afraid of any pros coming up with this simple loophole.

We need to get the group going ASAP if this really works, if only to get some kind of action soon!

--Zadok001, aka Greater Good fanatic

 

[Waubers]

I read up on some more rules and I'm baffled!
I emailed Stephen D'Angelo and I hope that he can clear this up the only thing I don't get is that happens when you don't pay? Does it fizzle does it go back to your hand what!?!?!?!? I don't want to think about this anymore but I'll let everyone know.
I gotta tell I would love to show up a tourny with a combo like this even though it does kind of go against what the CPA stands for. Geez what a tough descion.

Waubers

"Screw Bargain gimme my enchantres's"

 

[Waubers]

OK lets just say I errated my last statement...

I read up on some more rules and I'm baffled!
I emailed Stephen D'Angelo and I hope that he can clear this up. The only thing I don't get is what happens when you don't pay? Does the spell fizzle does, does it go back to your hand what!?!?!?!? I don't want to think about this any more, but I'll let everyone know what he tells me.
I gotta tell ya, I would love to show up a tourny with a combo like this even though it does kind of go against what the CPA stands for. Geez, what a tough descion.
Waubers

"Screw Bargain gimme my Enchantres's"

 

[TomB]

Doncha' just love 666e?

TomB
CPA Member
"I do not teach. I simply reveal."
-Daudi, Femeref tutor

 

[Zadok001]

I just built a version of it, and am _very_ carefully keeping the tech from anyone who might actually bring it into the light. God forbid Wakefield or Flores shows up at the next PTQ with a combo like this... Oh, god.

I did read up on some more rules, but I found little to nothing that disallows this combo.

BTW, my version (very rough) wins about 50% of the time turn 3. I know, not the best record ever. That's because 35% of the time it goes off turn 2. And the deck is exactly 2 cards from being Type 2. And we're talking "win" as in over 60 points of damage.

Damn.

--Zadok001, aka Greater Good fanatic
CPA Member
"We have more sprouts than they have hands."

 

[Ed Sullivan]

I'm not sure, but I think it might end up going back to your hand. For example, in that "So you want to be Level III..." article on The Dojo, when you try to cast Heat Ray on Multani, it goes back to your hand due to the target being illegal and you have X mana in your mana pool.

I think it's the same with this. You can't/don't pay costs so the spell is considered to have never been cast and it returns to your hand. Sorry...

-mike

 

[Ed Sullivan]

Ok, I think this is pertenate(?) to the situation. It's from the comprehensive rulebook.

[/QUOTE]422.1. If a player realizes that he or she can't legally take an action after starting to do so, the entire action is reversed and any payments already made are canceled. No abilities trigger as a result of an undone action. If the action was playing a spell, the spell card returns to the player's hand. He or she may also reverse any legal mana abilities played while making the illegal play.[/QUOTE]

Note the part where it says the spell returns to hand. Sorry again..

-mike
Ahh..last..post..time..for..sleep..

 

[JF]

Hi Ed.

Thank you for finding the above quote 422, much to my relief! No excuse necessary!

Nevertheless, the errata of the both enchantresses is theme enough for complaint. Not so disappointing by itself, but if compared with the errata of Lion's Eye Diamond .... where is the relation? In my imagination I can see WotC (the person WotC) standing in front of me with a loaded gun in hands and telling to me: 'You stupid player, accept now that WE like the Diamond to be useless and the enchantresses to be dominating! Do not complain, work around it. Throw away your Diamonds and buy new packs for additional enchantresses!'
I'm dissapointed! And not the first time.

As I cannot see all the replies during typing this message, I'm looking forward to the answer from D'Angelo about some more details (whoever has initiated it).

The super-special-unbeatable Enchantress deck is already existing! Even before the errata it had been superior, now it is highest tech!
(We are playing that deck in our groop)

Enough for today,
looking forward to more replies.
Greetings
JF

 

[Waubers]

Ed hit it on the head. I think this is exactly what mr D'angelo will tell me. But, none the less I am going to keep it under my hat for awhile. Who knows there still might be some problems with the rules.

Waubers

"Dammit it sure would have been fun to play against some of the guys in my area with the high DCI ratings and watch their jaws drop"

 

[Ferret]

Why would that be fun? Because you out-lawyered them? What's the fun in that? If you were up against someone trying to play a different loophole deck it might be fun, but if someone did that in one of my casual sessions I would probably have to kill him or something...

-ferret

"...just kidding..."