Is Sligh truly possible in the current Type II environment?

Discussion in 'CPA/WOTC Magic Issues' started by Dune Echo, Nov 21, 2000.

  1. Dune Echo CPA Founder, Idea Man

    This is more of a general discussion than a deck listing fest, so let's keep that in mind when replying to the topic please. Also, I'd like to see colors other than red included in this discussion. Also, I'd like to see what people think of dual-colored Sligh. Also, people may want to look at these links on Sligh:

    http://www.qtm.net/~jboes/Magic/sligh.htm

    http://www.wizards.com/sideboard/article.asp?x=sb20001005a

    Sligh's mana curve theory is this:
    1 mana slot: 9-13
    2 mana slot: 6-8
    3 mana slot: 3-5
    4 mana slot: 1-3
    X spell: 2-3
    Lightning bolt (critter kills): 8-10
    Mana: 23-26, 15-17 of color

    Of course, that is early theory. Nowadays, the mana curve tries to avoid the 4cc and Xcc spells for more efficient creatures, and Lightning Bolt does not even exist. So, can Sligh exist? There is also a rumor that Cursed Scroll will be in 7th Edition. How necessary would Cursed Scroll be (would it even be fast enough???) in the modern Sligh deck (yes, it may be a boon, but necessary?)?

    First of all, basic efficient creatures by each mana slot, forgive me if I miss some (I'm including other than red):

    1cc: Glittering Lynx, Infantry Veteran, Tundra Wolves, Cloud Sprite, Stormscape Apprentice, Kjeldoran Dead, Branded Brawlers, Flailing Soldier, Kris Mage, Laccolith Whelp, Raging Goblin, Scarred Puma, Thunderscape Apprentice, Llanowar Elite, Llanowar Elves, Stampede Driver, Skyshroud Ridgeback.
    2cc: Longbow Archers, Steadfast Guard, Cloudskate, Lord of Atlantis, Hate Weaver, Spineless Thug, Goblin Elite Infantry, Mogg Toady, Veteran Brawlers, Elvish Archers, Kavu Titan, Pygmy Razorback, Quirion Sentinel, River Boa, Vintara Snapper, Galina's Knight, Llanowar Knight, Shivan Zombie, Vodalion Zombie, and Yavimaya Barbarian.

    The one and two casting cost creatures are always going to be the most important. I have bolded the ones I feel are the most damaging and most offensive. White seems to be more focused on it's Rebel chain when it comes to creatures and really isn't as suitable for a Sligh archetecture. Blue just does not have enough quality creatures. Black and red have creature removal though which is very important to a Sligh deck type. Green has creature pumpers which function as direct damage/creature removal or damage prevention. Also, green's creatures are typically beefier, and it has a lot of good creatures in the 3 casting cost slot.

    Here I'll stop. The 3cc level and higher is where a Sligh deck can really vary in this environment based on color(s), initial deck composition, and personal style. What are your thoughts?
  2. Zero New Member

    Well, I think sligh is definetly a competetor, but what form will it take?
    Mono-color=Pretty bad...

    So, lets assume that the new form will be two-color. What colors? Looking through that magnificent creature list Dune Echo provided us with, I would have to say Sligh would most benefit from allieing from GREEN. Lets take a look at some of the creatures green has to offer, shall we?

    1cc

    Llanowar Elves
    Birds of Paradise
    Deepwood Wolverine
    Sacred Prey
    Groundskeeper
    Harvest Mage
    Mossdog
    Skyshroud Ridgeback
    Stampede Driver
    Marsh Boa
    Spore Frog
    Llanowar Elite
    Thornscape Apprentice

    Now, the only ones I would consider using are;
    Llanowar Elves
    Skyshroud Ridgeback
    Stampede Driver
    Marsh Boa (black is popular...)

    So, thats not all that solid for the 1cc slot, but it might do. I really want peoples opinions as to the Rideback.

    2cc.

    Elvish Archers
    River Boa
    Deepwood Drummer
    Rushwood Dryad
    Pygmy Razorback
    Vintara Snapper
    Nomadic Elf
    Quirion Sentinel
    Blurred Mongoose
    Yavimaya Barbarian

    Well, theres QUITE alot of awesome 2cc cards here.

    Elvish Archers;
    A good pic, but I would say filler if you cant find anything better, which you can. However, if Sligh or some other speed deck is rampant in your area, consider these babes for creature battles.

    River Boa:
    A good card, but the point of sligh is to use all the mana you have avalible every turn, will you really have time to regenerate? And about the blue thing; Blurred Mongoose would be better.

    Blurred Mongoose:
    See above

    Vintara Snapper:
    An excallent addition. Since your land is supposed to always be tapped, why not? 4!

    Nomadic Elf:
    I dont really think the Mana thing will be needed, and if thats true there are better 2/2's out there (Vintara Snapper, Vintara snapper!) I just wanted to mention it...

    Quirion Sentinel:
    Awesome excelleration, and it works great with sligh considering that you will have alot of 1cc dudes. GoQuirionSentinel! I would say 4!

    Yavimaya Barbarian:
    Im beggining to see this deck will have alot of Blue hate spells...some main deck, others in side I say...


    3cc

    Trained Armodon
    Uktabi Orangutan
    Megatherium
    Silt Crawler

    Ok..pretty solid, lets take a look!

    Trained Armodon:
    Filler, in case you dont enough good dudes. Maybe if meddiling Mage becomes really popular...

    Uktabi Orangutan:
    Its good, but then again, cant you get an Aura Mutation to do the same thing and probablly make 2 1/1 tokens? Then again, do you want to sit and wait untill your oppenent plays an artifact? And isnt there enough options for the 2cc slot? I ask you this, because I honestly cant decide.

    Megatherium:
    On average, how many cards are you really gonna have? Risky though...

    Silt Crawler:
    Yes, awesome! 4 go in!

    So, in conclusion, green has some awesome 2cc and 3cc drops, but not very strong 1cc slots. I suggest you go like this

    1cc: Mostly Red
    2cc: Msotly Green
    3cc: Mostly Green
    4cc: Shizzik

    And then, I think you have to decide wheither to use Burn or Pump. I have typed too much about nothing, so I will sign off.
  3. Zero New Member

    I just relized that post was about Deck-Construction. :(
    Im sorry!
  4. Dune Echo CPA Founder, Idea Man

    So is Red/Green the way to go? You have Giant Growth which is the Standard version of Lightning Bolt nowadays. And you have the option of burn to deal damage straight to the creature and noggin. The question also becomes, what is the three casting cost slot need to consist of? Urza's Rage, Silt Crawler, and MAYBE Megatherium (too risky IMO, you can't guarantee you get a 4/4 trampler for 3 mana, not good with Sligh).

    But how would black fit with Sligh? Thunderscape Apprentice is really nice for unstoppable (sorta) player life loss...
  5. Hellion New Member

    I consider Fires of Yayimaya deck a new kind of Sligh....Creature Sligh...like the original Sligh it can win in 4 turns and it's very hard to disrupt.

    So far.....that all I can see...maybe it will change in a few months when more sets are introduced.
  6. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    Wow, this is a big thread. I mean - why not just start a discussion on the most complicated deck going, and see what happens?
    Oh, wait, you just did...

    Firstly, it is vitally important to determine that we are, in fact, talking about the same deck.
    Sligh began as a deck that used effective attacking creatures (Dwarven Soldier, Ironclaw Orcs) combined with a number of creatures that had activation-cost abilities (Dwarven Lieutenant, Brothers Of Fire) the idea being that the deck would be able to use all it`s mana on each turn, and thus be more efficient than the other decks. In the early game having a range of creatures spread through the curve, so that you had a 1cc drop on the first turn, a 2cc drop on the second etc... meant that the deck gained the advantage in tempo, and then late-game the abilties of your cards stopped your opponent from catching up. This form of Sligh was a red board-control deck. It was the sort of deck that would have used cards like Pillage, Fireslinger, Orgg and Fireball, and ran 23 land.

    But red weenie changed as sets rotated, and became after Fireblast and Tempest a deck that was the fastest kill in the field. It was the sort of deck that played cards like Ball Lightning, Fireblast, Jackal Pup and ran 16-20 land (often 16 land with Goblin Bombardment). This, thought often called Sligh, is probably more accurately known as Deadguy Red. At some point somebody accidentally called their deck Deadguy Sligh, and a world of confusion ensued.

    So, what deck do you want to build - Sligh, or Deadguy?

    Next, colours. THE key part of both Sligh and Deadguy was the burn - if your deck does not use SOME burn, then it is not Sligh. Fires is NOT Sligh or Deadguy, it is more like a combo deck. USing burn as removal is a very efficient strategy, because unlike using cards like Edict or Parallax Wave, the burn can be turned on your opponent and so is never wasted. It is also essential to use a lot of burn in order to keep your opponent on the back foot. Creatures are fine, but they have summoning sickness and at some point it simply becomes a better strategy to use removal (that does not have summoning sickness) to force the 5/6 points of damage you have on the board through your opponent`s defenses.
    So, we have to play red at some point, any colour that is trying to be Sligh HAS to be allied to heavy red burn. In fact what we find is that red cannot realistically supply a Sligh curve alone as it has few efficient creatures at 1/2cc, so a deck trying to be Sligh must be a 2-colour deck that takes creatures from one colour, and burn from red.

    So what do the colours give us?
    GREEN - good solid aggressive monsters, but not many that have good abilties and so Green seems to support a Deadguy deck more than a Sligh deck.

    BLACK - There are enough quality 2cc creatures in black to make a good Deadguy-style deck, but it also gives us plenty of Sligh-style creatures as well (Rathi Infiltrator is excellent with the Spineless Thug and Cateran Persuader, Hate Weaver is a better Dwarven Lieutenant if he has red creatures to boost). Black can support either deck, but only really has gifts for the Sligh curve.

    BLUE - not much at all. In fact nothing of use whatsoever. No fast creatures, and nothing with a useful ability.

    WHITE
    "White seems to be more focused on it's Rebel chain when it comes to creatures and really isn't as suitable for a Sligh archetecture"
    - Dune Echo

    I utterly disagree, I actually feel that the Rebel Chain one of the strongest forms of Sligh ever produced, as it`s abilities are far better than those of Brothers Of Fire and Dwarven Lieutenant. The W/R Sligh deck (Jank) has a long tradition, but the possible problem is that there are few ways to support the mana base of the deck, and the deck also suffers fromt he fact that the Rebels go better in a WWeenie deck with Crusade. You COULD build a W/R Sligh deck, but I think it would be broadly inferior to WWeenie in most matchups. White does not really support a Deadguy deck, however.

    So lets look at what we have, assuming we are in red, what can we take from it as creatures? We will then look at other colours as well, to see what is on offer.

    RED
    1cc - Raging Goblin (Dg), Kris Mage (Sl)
    (not Flailing Soldier - it`s really bad)
    2cc - Skittish Kavu, Goblin Elite Infantry, Rage Weaver
    (not Brawlers - it`s a different deck, more like Ponza)
    3cc - Lava Runner, Kavu Aggressor, Orcish Artillery (Sl), Spur Grappler (Dg), Chimeric Idol
    4cc - Lesser Gargadon, Warmonger (Sl)
    5cc - Skizzik (Dg), Flowstone Overseer (Sl)

    GREEN
    1cc - Llanowar Elf
    2cc - River Boa, Kavu Titan, Elvish Archer, Yavimaya Barbarian, Blurred Mongoose
    3cc - Verduran Emissary (Sl), Trained Armodon, Silt Crawler, Raging Kavu (Dg)
    4cc - Blastoderm, Squallmonger (Sl)

    BLACK
    1cc - Molting Harpy (ugh)
    2cc - Cateran Persuader, Spineless Thug, Shivan Zombie, Hate Weaver (Sl)
    3cc - Rathi Intimidator (Sl), Pyre Zombie (Sl)
    4cc - Blazing Spectre, Phyrexian Prowler
    5cc - Fallen Angel

    WHITE
    1cc - Ramosian Sergeant (Sl)
    2cc - Fresh Volunteers, Steadfast Guard, Ramosian Lieutenant (Sl)
    3cc - Ramosian Captain (Sl), Lin-Sivvi (Sl)

    Anyway, the cards in Invasion mean that the curve for all these decks has to change to remove the 1cc drops. Thankfully Seal Of Fire exists to take up 4 slots here, so you only need 4-6 1cc creatures to follow a good mana curve.
  7. The Magic Jackal Veteran CPA Member<BR><font co

    The key card missing in a current mono-red sligh deck is consistant damage. The past type 2 block had the same problem. They didn't have a way to consistantly deal damage. Sligh really became powerful when it did have a way to consistantly deal damage (cursed scroll).

    Sure, they are ways to consistantly deal damage now (meteor storm, task mage assembly, etc.) but not a really good way to get your goal accomplished.

    So now the question is will cursed scroll be reprinted in 7th? I pray to god they don't. If they reprint scroll, then there is nothing stopping them from reprinting masticore and morphling in 8th. Cursed scroll would totally dominate the format, that's a fact, not fiction (i just couldn't resist:)). Based on the past editions, I do not believe that they will reprint scroll. They usually have a tendency to let out the really broken cards, but keep in the good ones. Otherwise we'd still be playing w/ moxes in lotuses in type two. What a difference that would make.
  8. Dune Echo CPA Founder, Idea Man

    To answer your question Gizmo, I am indeed speaking about the original idea of Sligh, not Deadguy.

    I think that the Deadguy Red version will indeed be a long time in coming back and that's fine. I am only curious as to whether or not a control version based on the original mana curve of Sligh is possible with the current environment and the lack of abusive 1cc creatures. Also, I'd like to know how well dual colors work now. I had a Rath/Urza green Sligh that beat the heck out of a Mother of Runes/Pariah/Cataclysm white weenie deck and Cursed Scroll/Null Brooch/Ensnaring Bridge/Grafted Skullcap deck. Maybe I was just lucky, but it worked very well, even with Albino Trolls and Pouncing Jaguars in it. The decks were very well made too.

    Gizmo- I well and truly enjoy your experienced insight to these matters. I've never known you to be uninformed in the matter of deck building. Welcome to this discussion. :)

    Really... Hmm... (Nowadays, there are a few creatures better than BoF and Dwarven Lieutenant I should hope! :D) I've always felt that the Rebels were too control oriented for Sligh especially if you focus more on the searchers, the Rebel deck isn't quite aggressive enough. And I agree, the Rebel chain lends itself very well to the Sligh philosophy by using all available resources each turn and the Rebels offer more possibilty in that aspect than ANY other creature in the game. Isn't part of Sligh also to press that advantage with attacking? Rebels sit back too much in comparision, IMO of course.

    I quite agree. So other options must be looked at to see if Sligh is truly viable with the original philosophy, correct?

    Kris Mage I feel is a wonderful Sligh creature. Extremely efficient. No, not broken or abusive, true, but the option to play a Death Spark each turn is very strong in the current environment and should be explored.

    Do you really feel Flailing Soldier is that bad? I've always looked at it as a creature you could play on turn one, and if your opponent decides to kill it on turn two, you've simply paid one R and a card to let them draw a card, put a land into play tapped, and skip the rest of one of the most vital turns in the game. Also, if a Flailing Soldier deals damage just once (say turn two or maybe even three?), and you opponent kills it later, have you done any worse than play a Shock?

    Well, what happens if we remove the majority of the first turns drops from the Sligh theory? And basically bump the levels up one? How badly does that throw things off, especially in regards to the land count? That's what the environment is moving towards anyway, correct?

    Again, I think it won't because WotC hasn't ever reprinted anything that was banned in any environment (which asks a second question, will Dark Ritual be back, but I digress...). But as a rumor, will Cursed Scroll be a viable and dangerous component in Sligh's (or Deadguy's) arsenal once more?
  9. Dune Echo CPA Founder, Idea Man

    How does Tangle Wire fit in with the Sligh Philosophy?
  10. Darsh Corrupt CPA Member

    I don't thing Tangle Wire fits in, it's more of a control card, one you use to slowly kill an opponent in sligh that is not what you want.
  11. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    "I don't thing Tangle Wire fits in, it's more of a control card, one you use to slowly kill an opponent in sligh that is not what you want."
    -Darsh

    ???
    I disagree here. Tangle Wire is a temporal advantage card because it`s parity is broken - they tap 4 permanents, you tap 2. However this advantage is only temporary and if you do not gain a sufficient advantage during the two turns it is really effective then you will simply have wasted the card.
    Tangle Wire goes very well in fast decks, but I think that your deck has to be consistently fast to justify using it. It`s a Deadguy card, not a Sligh card. I guess you could build a deck of Veteran Brawlers, Spur Grapplers and Tangle Wires...

    "And I agree, the Rebel chain lends itself very well to the Sligh philosophy by using all available resources each turn and the Rebels offer more possibilty in that aspect than ANY other creature in the game. Isn't part of Sligh also to press that advantage with attacking? Rebels sit back too much in comparision, IMO of course."
    -Dune Echo

    Well, the 'original' Sligh deck used nothing more aggressive than an Ironclaw Orc, and both Fresh Volunteers and Steadfast Guards are as good as Orcs. All you need is a couple of 2/2 geezers on the table and a couple of burn in hand and the win will come soon enough.

    W/R Sligh
    v1.0
    2 Infantry Veteran
    4 Sergeant
    4 Volunteers
    4 Guard
    2 Lieutenant
    1 Ramosian Captain
    1 Defiant Vanguard
    1 Lin-Sivvi
    1 Mageta

    4 Seal of Fire
    4 Shock
    4 Rhystic Lightning
    4 Urza`s Rage

    3 City Of Brass
    8 Mountain
    11 Plains

    or

    B/R Sligh

    2 Molting Harpy
    4 Shivan Zombie
    4 Cateran Persuader
    4 Mindless Thug
    4 Rathi Intimidator
    4 Blazing Spectre

    4 Seal Of Fire
    4 Shock
    4 Rhystic Lightning/Maniacal Rage
    4 Urza`s Rage

    1 Keldon Necropolis
    2 Urborg Volcano
    4 Sulfurous Springs
    6 Mountain
    9 Swamp

    "Do you really feel Flailing Soldier is that bad? I've always looked at it as a creature you could play on turn one, and if your opponent decides to kill it on turn two, you've simply paid one R and a card to let them draw a card, put a land into play tapped, and skip the rest of one of the most vital turns in the game. Also, if a Flailing Soldier deals damage just once (say turn two or maybe even three?), and you opponent kills it later, have you done any worse than play a Shock?"
    -Dune Echo

    One of the greatest pitfalls in magic deckbuilding is how easy it is to argue the case for a bad card. Misstep - 'isn`t it just a Time Walk?'. How about some other ways of looking at the Soldier...
    If your opponent taps out to kill it, isn`t it just the same as if he had succesfully removed your creature, but without having to lose a card to do so?
    Of vastly more importance is that it`s a huge mana burden to keep alive. Assuming your opponent has 2 land, you need to keep 2 mana open to save the Soldier because they can use their untap phase to double the amount of mana available, in fact if we assume they are going to lay a third land then you need another mana as well. If they have three lands you need to leave five open to save it - and the situation gets worse at each stage. This is not a good thing if you are intending on playing out more threats, which is kind of the point of Sligh, after all.
    The Soldier ties up your mana and will ultimately fail to cost your opponent a card - it`s bad coming AND going.

    "Well, what happens if we remove the majority of the first turns drops from the Sligh theory? And basically bump the levels up one? How badly does that throw things off, especially in regards to the land count? That's what the environment is moving towards anyway, correct?"
    -same guy

    Not much, remember that the 1cc slot was only ever giving us a boggy 1/1 guy until Deadguy brought us Jackal Pups, Mogg Conscripts etc. The standard 1cc drops were stuff like Ballon Brigades and Digging Teams. We don`t really slow down too much because they were only 1/1, in fact the Seals mean that we can spend more mana on better creaturs later in the game, possible strengthening rather than weakening the Sligh curve concept.

    As for Cursed Scroll, I repeat (again) that D.A.Gregory said, at UK Gencon, that he had just finished redoing the Scroll artwork for inclusion in 7th Edition.
    So there you go.
  12. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    Besides, Scroll was only banned in Rath Block Constructed.
  13. Fear New Member

    Sorry to not carry on the sligh conversation.

    There gonna reprint Cursed Scroll!?

    My God...:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
  14. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    Now, when people refer to sligh, gizmo, you're all too right that they're talking about deadguy red. Deadguy red will never, I think, reach the point where it was in MiViLite/Rath because it's now lacking the abusive 1cc creatures (Jackal pup, mogg fanatic, et al)

    Sligh, when I first saw it, looked like a pile. A bunch of decent cards mixed together, but it works. The cards they chose were good, agressive, and met well. but sligh relied on a couple things:

    1. the mulligan. It just isn't there anymore. Not only that, but because we are considering 2 color sligh, it becomes more difficult to pull the bizzare, small mana curve (Or lack thereof) that sligh managed.

    2. Metagame. Sligh was largely a metagame choice, IMHO. deadguy red wasn't but deadguy red is a seperate deck altogether. the closest we can come, I agree, to sligh would be w/r and b/r decks, but that's a perversion of the sligh I know.
  15. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Gizmo: You said:
    Not to be technical :p, but aren't you tapping 3, not 2? You only remove one counter by the time it's your upkeep (barring any other interference). Am I missing something?

    About Cursed Scroll: If it goes into current Standard decks, will it really be as dominating as it was in Rath? I don't have an answer, I'm just asking the question. :)
  16. Griffith_se Queen of the Sub-Optimal

    Technically You're right, but I think He said that because You tap Tangle Wire itself leaving only two.
  17. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    Yep, as far as 99% of the population is concerned, Tangle Wire is a 4/2 imbalance because you can tap it.

    As for Cursed Scroll. It WAS a well balanced card that happened to be around at a time when decks were able to rapidly destroy hands, and the opposing decks had few ways of dealing with artifacts. Cursed Scroll was not, and WILL not, be as powerful as Masticore.
    It will be played, aw hell yeah!
    But the slower metagame will make it less problematic not just because of hand size but because it will be supporting a naturally slower deck, giving you longer to find an answer for it. I would actually LIKE to see it reprinted (And not just because I have 4 signed ones).
  18. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    Bleh. There are still decks out there quick enough to capitalize on the card, the only difference is that we have more disenchants out there too. It's a great card. Not a broken one, though.

    After watching a guy scroll rack 3 times for pillage, with 3 pillages and nothing else in his hand, I got a little tired of that card....
  19. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    I think I`m going to wrap this thread into an article for the Sideboard (about time I cashed in on the fact that I`m matey with the Sideboard editor). So before I do that, has anybody got anything they want to say so I can have even more good ideas/discussions to add in?
    Anybody care to revise my basic history of the Sligh/Deadguy archetypes? Or revise my current Sligh versions?
  20. Dune Echo CPA Founder, Idea Man

    :D

    Nope, I'm fine here. But I did think of something the other day: Do you think possibly that the Cursed Scroll artwork may have been redone for some sort of promotional venue or possibly a special boxed set much like Beatdown and Anthologies? Is it neccessarily guaranteed for 7th edition? Also, just about everywhere, Masticore is cheaper than Cursed Scroll (Star City had the CS at 18.00 while Masticore was only 10.00) and easier to get out of a box of cards... Are you sure about that abusiveness comparison between the two.

    Also, Sligh theory for the current environment will of course change everytime a set is rotated in. I just think it's Sligh that's coming back, not Deadguy.

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