Hurkyl's recall & Metalworker

Discussion in 'Rules Questions' started by Mundungu, May 23, 2001.

  1. Mundungu grumpier than ever

    Hurkyl's Recall 1U
    Return to target player's hand all artifacts he or she owns.

    Metalworker 3
    <T>: Reveal any number of artifact cards in your hand. Add two colorless mana to your mana pool for each card revealed this way.


    Because of the timing rule:

    409.1a The player announces that he or she is playing the spell or ability. It goes on the stack and remains there until it’s countered or resolves. Spell cards are physically placed on the stack. For abilities, a pseudospell with the text and color of the card generating the ability goes on the stack.

    I am not sure if the following works:

    In response to me tapping the metalworker, I play hurkyl's recall, returning all artefacts INCLUDING the metalworker.

    The effect of the metal worker is still on the stack, eventhough the metalworker isnt in play at that moment.

    Do I get all the mana generated by the now absent Metalworker ?

    In case I wasnt clear here is an example:
    I have no artefact in hand,
    Metalworker, Juju's bauble and Grim monolith are in play.

    I tap the metalworker for mana, and in response play hurkyl's recall, returning the 3 artefacts to my hand.
    When the effect of the metalworker resolves, do I get 6 mana ?

    Thank you for your help there.
  2. EricBess Active Member

    Cool idea. However, it doesn't quite work.

    The only "cost" of using the Metalworker's ability is to tap it. Everything else happens on resolution, so you are good on that end. The only problem is that Metalworker's ability is a mana ability and mana abilities do not use the stack, so you would already have the mana in your pool (0 mana, in this case) before you could even cast Hurkyl's Recall.
  3. Mundungu grumpier than ever

    Alrgith I checked it all out. See below for all the Comp rule relevant passage.

    I was mislead by the fact that in the past, the cards would indicate "play this as a mana source".

    Does that mean that ANY effect generating mana is a mana Ability ?

    Leading to that is another question.
    Say I use Bog witch to generate 3 mana. This is an activated ability that is a mana ability.
    The activation goes on the stack but the mana doesnt.

    Does that mean that the mana is available to me, even though the effect has not resolved yet?

    practical case:
    ---------
    I use Bog whitch to generate BBB.
    I tap it, discard a card as payment. I have no mana open.
    My opp responds by playing an instant (doesnt matter which)
    Can I respond by casting an instant using the mana generated by the Bog which ?
    ---------



    Now my next question is for spells generating Mana. (like Dark ritual). They are spells, not effect. Are they considered as spells or mana abilities ?

    Is there anything else that produces Mana WITHOUT being a mana ability ?


    Here is an extract of the comprehensive rule book concerning mana abilities:
    -----------
    411. Playing Mana Abilities

    411.1. To play a mana ability, the player announces that he or she is playing it and pays the activation cost. It resolves immediately and doesn’t go on the stack. (See rule 408.2e.)

    -----------
    Mana Ability
    This is an ability category and is either activated or triggered. A mana ability doesn’t go on the stack—it resolves immediately.
    A player may play a mana ability whenever he or she has priority and whenever a rule or effect asks for a mana payment. This is the only type of ability that can be played in the middle of playing or resolving a spell or ability. See rule 406.1, “Mana Abilities.”

    -------------

    406.1. Mana Abilities

    406.1a A mana ability is an activated ability that puts mana into a player’s mana pool when it resolves or a triggered ability that triggers from an activated mana ability and produces additional mana. It can generate other effects at the same time it produces mana.

    406.1b Spells that put mana into a player’s mana pool aren’t mana abilities. They’re played and resolved exactly like any other spell. Triggered abilities that put mana into a player’s mana pool but trigger from events other than activating mana abilities aren’t mana abilities. They go on the stack and resolve like any other triggered ability.

    406.1c A mana ability exists even if the game state doesn’t allow it to produce mana.
    EXAMPLE: A card has an ability that reads, “ocT: Add oG to your mana pool for each creature you control.” This is still a mana ability even if you control no creatures.

    406.1d A mana ability can be activated or triggered. However, the rules for playing and resolving mana abilities differ slightly from those for other abilities. See rule 411, “Playing Mana Abilities,” for details.

    406.1e The ability resolves immediately, without going on the stack. (See rule 408.2, “Actions That Don’t Use the Stack.”) Abilities that trigger on playing mana abilities do go on the stack, however.
    ----------------
  4. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    It seems to me Bog Witch falls under 406.1e and resolves immediately.

    Dark Ritual is a spell and falls under 406.1b.

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