Helcomb County Municipal Lake Dredge Appraisal

Discussion in 'Casual Decks/Variants/Etc' started by Oversoul, Apr 4, 2014.

  1. Terentius The Instigator


    Ah, I fudged up this part. I thought the manaless Flashback card was Dredge Return, and I didn't see it when I Ctrl+F'd. I figured you could use the tokens for that, because you'd already have some creatures in your graveyard, but even so Tombstone Stairwell doesn't fit very well.
  2. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Ha, you're much too late! I already built the deck to be Abzan, not Sultai (I saw a bunch of Legacy players raging over the very idea of adopting the new clan names to denote the wedge color combinations, and their tears nourish my soul). But in truth, blue/black/green is my favorite three-color combination of all. It wasn't easy for me to go with white over blue. While part of my decision had to do with what white had to offer (Unburial Rites, Karmic Guide, Reya Dawnbringer, etc.), some of it came down to the potential I saw in Karador, who would only cost me three mana, whereas Damia would cost seven. Now the deck relies on Karador pretty heavily and works pretty well with him, so I'm not going back. But yeah, I sure do miss Narcomoeba.

    If I tried to start building a dredge-based Commander deck from scratch now, I'd be hard-pressed not to base it around Sidisi, who didn't exist at the time. Not to diss your Damia deck that I don't know anything about, but doesn't Sidisi look to be the prime commander for that color scheme now? Given any thought to supplanting Damia with her?
  3. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Sidisi continues to look really attractive as a commander for a dredge deck. Such a shame that the timing didn't work out on that, with her being revealed in September and me contemplating building a dredge-based Commander deck back in March. I was talking Commander for a bit with some players at a local Khans prerelease, and when I mentioned that I'd have to change my color scheme to use blue instead of white, the response was sarcastic, because of course blue gets access to so many good cards. But like I said, I'm invested in this now. So I'll just have to note that a Sidisi deck could be a good option for Commander if I ever take this Karador deck apart.

    Anyway, this deck has evolved considerably since I first physically constructed a version of it in May. I had a few rounds of substitutions, with the first one being pretty significant. After getting some cards from the new set, I wanted to see if I could fit any of Khans of Tarkir into this, as well as replacing some of the low-impact noncreature stuff with cards that can actually be used from my graveyard. In particular, I looked through Innistrad block, as well as perusing the old Odyssey block flashback spells. And I think the deck is finally coming together. I may not yet have the best possible Karador deck, but the list I have now is pretty focused and I'd like to think it's quite good. I made a post a while back about how lands can be recurred, creatures can be recurred, but non-creature, non-land cards that don't have inbuilt graveyard usage often wind up falling flat here. I listed all cards in that category. Now that I've had to make decisions about what stays and what goes, here's my reasoning...

    Sol Ring: Sometimes gets dredged away and sits in my graveyard, but it's worth having anyway because this deck is mana-hungry.
    Swords to Plowshares: If I draw this, there's always going to be a target for it. If I dredge it away, oh well. Good enough to stay.
    Diabolic Intent: I used this to find a combo component sometimes, but ended up just discarding it too often in testing.
    Crop Rotation: Valuable for its potential to grab an early Bazaar of Baghdad, but it's a pretty bad tutor other than that one thing.
    Buried Alive: A very potent dredge-enabler if I draw it. If I dredge it away, I didn't need it anyway. Acceptable.
    Survival of the Fittest: So, so good. I can tutor up dredgers and then pitch them to tutor up combo components. Worth keeping.
    Scapeshift: I've almost never used this in testing and I've discarded it on account of not needing it sometimes, but in principle, this is good to have around. I can turn a hand with lands and little else besides Scapeshift into a real engine by turn 4.
    Eladamri's Call: A tutor that wasn't pulling its weight.
    Sylvan Library: Ends up in my graveyard a lot unless it was in my opening hand, but the synergy with dredgers is profound.
    Maelstrom Pulse: More expensive than Swords and generally ended up dredged away.
    Pull from Eternity: Not much use on offense, where I want to be, but I have some fondness for this card and its potential for shenanigans.
    Vampiric Tutor: A tough call. Losing 2 life isn't much, but if I could get some dredge going on without tutors, which is usually not that hard, this becomes dead weight.
    Regrowth: Another tough call. Regrowth has dozens of uses in this deck, but only works if I draw into it.
    Mox Diamond: Like Sol Ring, this is valuable mana production if it's in my opening hand. It does get dredged away, but it's probably still worth having.
    Demonic Tutor: If I'm going to keep a tutor that can't be used from my graveyard, this would probably be the one.
    Oversold Cemetery: A cool card that I know I'll cut. This deck just wasn't letting it work.
    Liliana of the Veil: Unlikely to hit the board unless I draw into her right away, but amazing enough to make up for that.
    Crucible of Worlds: I hate dredging this card away so much, as I know that I probably won't get to use it in that game. But when I draw it, Crucible is one of the best cards in the deck.
    Worldly Tutor: Same problem as Vampiric Tutor really, but it can't be used to fetch Life from the Loam and such.
    Entomb: Faster than other tutors in some respects. I'd prefer to keep this, as it's a very reliable dredge-enabler.
    Grisly Salvage: In principle, a perfect card for this deck. I have yet to see it accomplish anything.
    Chrome Mox: Needing to ditch a business spell from my hand is actually a lot to ask of this deck. I prefer Mox Diamond.

    So I made the following changes...

    -1 Swamp
    -1 Nether Traitor
    -1 Grisly Salvage
    -1 Vampiric Tutor
    -1 Chrome Mox
    -1 Worldly Tutor
    -1 Maelstrom Pulse
    -1 Diabolic Intent
    -1 Eladamri's Call
    -1 Oversold Cemetery
    +1 Gnaw to the Bone
    +1 Kessig Cagebreakers
    +1 Ray of Revelation
    +1 Call of the Herd
    +1 Ashen Rider
    +1 Ghoultree
    +1 Spider Spawning
    +1 Wurmcoil Engine
    +1 Siege Rhino
    +1 Sandsteppe Citadel

    And now, that leaves me with Helcomb County Municipal Lake Dredge Appraisal version 2.0

    Commander
    1x Karador, Ghost Chieftain

    Creatures
    1x Abyssal Gatekeeper
    1x Angel of Despair
    1x Apprentice Necromancer
    1x Ashen Ghoul
    1x Ashen Rider
    1x Avacyn's Pilgrim
    1x Birds of Paradise
    1x Bloodghast
    1x Dark Confidant
    1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
    1x Eternal Witness
    1x Fauna Shaman
    1x Fleshbag Marauder
    1x Gaddock Teeg
    1x Ghoultree
    1x Golgari Brownscale
    1x Golgari Grave-Troll
    1x Golgari Thug
    1x Greater Mossdog
    1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
    1x Karmic Guide
    1x Kessig Cagebreakers
    1x Knight of the Reliquary
    1x Llanowar Elves
    1x Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
    1x Nether Shadow
    1x Qasali Pridemage
    1x Reassembling Skeleton
    1x Reveillark
    1x Reya Dawnbringer
    1x Shambling Shell
    1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
    1x Shriekmaw
    1x Siege Rhino
    1x Spirit of the Hearth
    1x Stinkweed Imp
    1x Tarmogoyf
    1x Triskelion
    1x Weathered Wayfarer
    1x Wurmcoil Engine

    Instants
    1x Crop Rotation
    1x Darkblast
    1x Entomb
    1x Gnaw to the Bone
    1x Krosan Reclamation
    1x Pull from Eternity
    1x Ray of Revelation
    1x Swords to Plowshares

    Sorceries
    1x Buried Alive
    1x Call of the Herd
    1x Demonic Tutor
    1x Dread Return
    1x Life from the Loam
    1x Regrowth
    1x Scapeshift
    1x Spider Spawning
    1x Unburial Rites

    Enchantments
    1x Survival of the Fittest
    1x Sylvan Library

    Artifacts
    1x Crucible of Worlds
    1x Mox Diamond
    1x Sol Ring
    1x Crucible of Worlds
    1x Mox Diamond
    1x Sol Ring

    Planeswalkers
    1x Liliana of the Veil

    Lands
    1x Barren Moor
    1x Bayou
    1x Bazaar of Baghdad
    1x City of Brass
    1x Command Tower
    1x Dakmor Salvage
    1x Dark Depths
    1x Dryad Arbor
    1x Flagstones of Trokair
    2x Forest
    1x Golgari Rot Farm
    1x Horizon Canopy
    1x Marsh Flats
    1x Maze of Ith
    1x Miren, the Moaning Well
    1x Mutavault
    1x Orzhov Basilica
    2x Plains
    1x Sandsteppe Citadel
    1x Savannah
    1x Scrubland
    1x Secluded Steppe
    1x Selesnya Sanctuary
    1x Strip Mine
    2x Swamp
    1x Thespian's Stage
    1x Tranquil Thicket
    1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1x Verdant Catacombs
    1x Vesuva
    1x Volrath's Stronghold
    1x Wasteland
    1x Windswept Heath
  4. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    I refined the deck some more, cutting cards that seemed redundant or underwhelming for ones that I hope will be more promising.

    -1 Miren, the Moaning Well
    -1 Horizon Canopy
    -1 Mox Diamond
    -1 Angel of Despair
    -1 Bloodghast
    -1 Nether Shadow
    +1 Worm Harvest
    +1 Spore Frog
    +1 Carrion Feeder
    +1 Saffi Eriksdotter
    +1 Gaea's Cradle
    +1 Karakas

    Helcomb County Municipal Lake Dredge Appraisal version 2.1

    Commander
    1x Karador, Ghost Chieftain

    Creatures
    1x Abyssal Gatekeeper
    1x Apprentice Necromancer
    1x Ashen Ghoul
    1x Ashen Rider
    1x Avacyn's Pilgrim
    1x Birds of Paradise
    1x Carrion Feeder
    1x Dark Confidant
    1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
    1x Eternal Witness
    1x Fauna Shaman
    1x Fleshbag Marauder
    1x Gaddock Teeg
    1x Ghoultree
    1x Golgari Brownscale
    1x Golgari Grave-Troll
    1x Golgari Thug
    1x Greater Mossdog
    1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
    1x Karmic Guide
    1x Kessig Cagebreakers
    1x Knight of the Reliquary
    1x Llanowar Elves
    1x Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
    1x Qasali Pridemage
    1x Reassembling Skeleton
    1x Reveillark
    1x Reya Dawnbringer
    1x Saffi Eriksdotter
    1x Shambling Shell
    1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
    1x Shriekmaw
    1x Siege Rhino
    1x Spirit of the Hearth
    1x Spore Frog
    1x Stinkweed Imp
    1x Tarmogoyf
    1x Triskelion
    1x Weathered Wayfarer
    1x Wurmcoil Engine

    Instants
    1x Crop Rotation
    1x Darkblast
    1x Entomb
    1x Gnaw to the Bone
    1x Krosan Reclamation
    1x Pull from Eternity
    1x Ray of Revelation
    1x Swords to Plowshares

    Sorceries
    1x Buried Alive
    1x Call of the Herd
    1x Demonic Tutor
    1x Dread Return
    1x Life from the Loam
    1x Regrowth
    1x Scapeshift
    1x Spider Spawning
    1x Unburial Rites
    1x Worm Harvest

    Enchantments
    1x Survival of the Fittest
    1x Sylvan Library

    Artifacts
    1x Crucible of Worlds
    1x Sol Ring

    Planeswalkers
    1x Liliana of the Veil

    Lands
    1x Barren Moor
    1x Bayou
    1x Bazaar of Baghdad
    1x City of Brass
    1x Command Tower
    1x Dakmor Salvage
    1x Dark Depths
    1x Dryad Arbor
    1x Flagstones of Trokair
    2x Forest
    1x Gaea's Cradle
    1x Golgari Rot Farm
    1x Karakas
    1x Marsh Flats
    1x Maze of Ith
    1x Mutavault
    1x Orzhov Basilica
    2x Plains
    1x Sandsteppe Citadel
    1x Savannah
    1x Scrubland
    1x Secluded Steppe
    1x Selesnya Sanctuary
    1x Strip Mine
    2x Swamp
    1x Thespian's Stage
    1x Tranquil Thicket
    1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1x Verdant Catacombs
    1x Vesuva
    1x Volrath's Stronghold
    1x Wasteland
    1x Windswept Heath
  5. Terentius The Instigator

    Isn't Sheoldred awesome? I run 3 in my RB Reanimator now.
  6. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    In this deck, Sheoldred is probably only slightly better than Reya Dawnbringer most of the time (although depending on opponents, the difference could matter more). But the thing is that having two of those creatures is pretty valuable and can win games. I'd use more than two if I could.

    In contrast, Angel of Despair is definitely worse than Ashen Rider. One of my combos was to use Sheoldred and Reya to bring back both Ashen Rider and Angel of Despair, then use Ashen Rider to take out threats and Angel of Despair to get Ashen Rider into my graveyard again, killing my own Angel of Despair with Fleshbag Marauder or through other means. But Carrion Feeder is a way more efficient means to accomplish that, and it also allows for more Reveillark shenanigans.
  7. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Horizon Canopy is back in and Karakas is out. This is solely due to the Rules Committee banning Karakas and the unwarranted respect that this "official" designation has in the community. I'd rather have a deck that is deemed "legal" by potential opponents than one that includes Karakas (same reason I'm not using Griselbrand or Protean Hulk). I won't go on at length about this issue here (not yet, anyway). But for now, it's back to Horizon Canopy.

    Also, decklist copied to the top of this thread for convenience.
  8. Shabbaman insert avatar here

    For me, the main reason to run W in EDH is Sun Titan. It's so much fun to recur your utility crap, and it has many good synergies and combo's. It might be the top end of your curve, but considering that it can bring back Saffi...

    Another game-ending spell I miss in your list is Living Death. It's a classic, it's solid, it does double duty as removal, and you're a graveyard deck.
  9. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Sun Titan was one that I considered, but for some reason I never actually tried it. That was before I was running Saffi and a few other cards that might make Sun Titan even more useful. So I'd probably better give Sun Titan another look.

    The only reason Living Death isn't in this deck is that it suffers from the same "gets dredged away" problem has caused me to cut some other good cards. Most test runs I've done with this deck have it dredging instead of drawing by turn four or five, and unless I draw into Living Death right away, it's probably going right into my graveyard and staying there. This problem also applies to many other cards that I'm still keeping in the deck, but those cards are all cheaper to cast and have considerable benefits if drawn and cast early in the game.
  10. Shabbaman insert avatar here

    I see. I had to reread what you wrote, because it reads like the same argument I get when I suggest something like Splinterfreight: "but then I put all my good cards in the yard and won't draw them, boohoo". When you're not drawing cards anymore after turn 5 (in your preferred scenario... there's nothing wrong with a contingency plan), I see why you want cards that can be easily recurred. Which makes Splinterfreight a good option, I guess...

    I'm not sure you are making your graveyard work hard enough for you. Perhaps it is because you are building a combo deck, which is a bit uncommon, so the list looks different from lists I usually see, but the usual stuff I expect in a deck like this is missing. For starters, you are running the wrong Lhurgoyf. EDH is the format of big, scary monsters, and Tarmo isn't one of them. The only reason to run Tarmogoyf are:
    a. you want to show you're rich
    b. you are playing 1v1
    c. you need an early blocker
    d. your deck is running on a very low curve
    e. it's your favorite creature of all time
    But then something like Boneyard Wurm is likely better. If you're playing multiplayer, I think you'll get more mileage out of Mortivore and Lord of Extinction. You could try Jarad, it gives you an alternate wincon.

    EDIT: depending on how keen you are on removing your own creatures, Pharika seems like a solid fit for your deck. It's a nice political tool as well, and some graveyard hate can be nice at times. Erebos is solid card draw, and when you get your general online you are in a good position to abuse Karametra.
  11. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Splinterfright would definitely be a good option. It was only a month or so ago that I realized just how many cards Innistrad Block has that fit into this sort of deck. I eventually added Ghoultree and such, but didn't go for Splinterfright, and I don't remember why not. I even suggested Splinterfright to someone else who was playing a graveyard-based Commander deck, but for some reason I still haven't tried the card in my own deck. It seems like a pretty silly oversight right now.

    There's a bit more variance than I'd like, but it's a delicate balance. In some games, I'm dumping most of my library into my graveyard rapidly, and in other games I get stuck playing chump blockers and stalling for a while. Usually it's somewhere in between.

    A: Yes. I mean, I'm not actually rich, but other than the absence of foils, this deck is pretty obnoxiously ostentatious. Of course, there's the Bazaar of Baghdad and the dual lands and the other obvious stuff, but it keeps going.
    B: Not so much. I think this could probably duel better than most multiplayer EDH decks, but I'm not really building it for 1v1 matches.
    C: That's the idea, in large part. I need more opponents so that I can figure out whether that's even an issue. If I'm in a metagame where early blockers are necessary for survival, Tarmogoyf makes more sense. If my opponents play slow decks, Tarmogoyf loses some of its appeal.
    D: Not applicable. Dredge decks don't have mana curves in the same way that other aggressive decks do. But the low mana cost is useful in games that have me dredging from the beginning. If I'm not drawing cards (because I'm replacing my draws with dredges), then I'm not drawing lands. So other than lands I had in my hand before I started dredging, I might not be able to get too many more lands out. Of course, I can Life from the Loam some back, get Crucible of Worlds out and replay lands from my graveyard, use Karador to drop Dryad Arbor, get Dakmore Salvage through dredging, and grab lands from my library with Weathered Wayfarer, but that can still slow my mana production down. A two-drop is easy to pull off, though.
    E: Nope.

    Honestly, I forgot about Boneyard Wurm. Splinterfright is self-feeding and synergizes with this deck, something I did notice and appreciate, but Boneyard Wurm sort of slipped my mind. It's not a bad card and would work in this sort of deck. Depending on what I need for the style my opponents would bring to the table, I could even put Boneyard Wurm into this deck. But since you compared it to Tarmogoyf, I want to lay out exactly why Tarmogoyf has some appeal, other than sheer ostentation, which Boneyard Wurm lacks...
    • Even if I'm playing a two-drop creature right away with nothing in my graveyard, Tarmogoyf can sit there and wait to grow. Boneyard Wurm absolutely requires a creature in my graveyard. Most of the time, this is easily fulfilled, but that isn't always the case.
    • Before my graveyard gets expansive, Tarmogoyf grows more quickly than Boneyard Wurm. Even very early on, Tarmogoyf is likely a 4/5 or 5/6, perhaps even a 6/7. Boneyard Wurm, for the same initial investment of mana, is going to take some dredging to get that big. It has the potential to become a lot bigger, but for scenarios in which I want an early blocker or the threat of an attacker early on, Tarmogoyf is way better.
    • By the time Boneyard Wurm becomes huge, I have a well-stocked graveyard and should be unleashing some combo that makes Boneyard Wurm one of the least threatening things on my board. At that point, the fact that I'd have a 19/19 Boneyard Wurm instead of a 6/7 Tarmogoyf is superfluous. That doesn't cover every scenario and a single really big creature can be useful a lot of the time, but Karmic Guide shenanigans, or better yet Mikaeus/Triskelion, can do way more than a simple Boneyard Wurm. We had that problem illustrated in one of the tribal games, with BigBlue getting a Taurean Mauler up to some ridiculous size but being unable to kill anyone with the non-trampling, non-evading creature that could get chump-blocked all day.
    • As I start bringing creatures back from my graveyard, Boneyard Wurm shrinks. This is not necessarily sufficient reason not to include the card, but it is a very real phenomenon. In some of my test games, I've had Reya/Sheoldred digging up so many creatures that when I contemplated casting Spider Spawning or attacking with Kessig Cagebreakers, I realized that it would be ineffectual, as I'd nearly depleted my graveyard of creatures. Admittedly, if things are going that well, Boneyard Wurm is just another body anyway, which is all that could be said for some other cards, like Reassembling Skeleton. But Tarmogoyf isn't subject to this problem, however minor it probably is.
    Lord of Extinction was in one of my early draft lists for this deck. I forget if Mortivore was, but I wound up cutting some cards like that just because they're expensive enough that I'd be more likely to be reanimating them in some way than I would be to hardcast them, and I hesitate to invest resources into reanimating creatures that are merely big, rather than ones that have useful abilities. This is a grey area. I could reasonably cast Mortivore or even Lord of Extinction before too long, even if I'm dredging a lot, and even if I have to do so through Karador. But part of my decision to include Tarmogoyf in the deck was based on the idea that it was a very cheap creature that would be decent-sized on its own, before I started going crazy with graveyard combos.

    I've had my eye on Jarad for a while. He's a definite possibility (and would definitely make Lord of Extinction potent).

    Erebos was in an early version of this deck. He didn't really work out. The devotion requirement was definitely a contributing factor there. I'll have to think about the other two...
  12. Shabbaman insert avatar here

    I'm not completely sold on Erebos either (in any of my decks), but I think you don't want to trigger Devotion. Creatures are easier to exile than enchantments, and it's not a stellar creature to begin with. It is recurrable card draw though.

    I thought of Bonehoard, but you can't recur that. You can recur Nighthowler, and it works with Sun Titan as well. I like it because it keeps a board presence after a sweeper (when you used Bestow).

    One of my favorite cards is Puppeteer Clique. When you go for Dark Mike shenanigans, I like this is an option: it's style to beat someone in the face with his own creatures, and it does double duty as graveyard hate.
  13. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Without devotion, Erebos is basically Greed with a higher activation cost. It's an indestructible version of Greed that stops opponents from gaining life and can be played through Karador and such, but still, it's basically Greed.

    Ooh, good point. And the bestow function works with Karador's ability. I could even bestow Nighthowler onto Karador and actually kill people with commander damage.

    Definitely a good card. I never ended up testing Puppeteer Clique because when I was trimming down a pool of possible cards for my original decklist, I cut a group of "take stuff from opponent's graveyards" concepts, banking on exploiting my own graveyard, regardless of what other people were doing.
  14. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    I've given the deck another overhaul. Changes from the November version...

    -1 Ashen Ghoul: Too small to matter in the long run. Usually, this guy just sat in my graveyard doing nothing.

    -1 Call of the Herd: This sure did let me make a 3/3 elephant token, even if the card was milled away. That turns out not to count for much.

    -1 Crop Rotation: Amazing when it's turning a first turn Forest into Bazaar of Baghdad or when it's giving me a second turn Marit Lage, but useless if it
    gets milled. This is a cut I don't like making and may go back on. We'll see.

    -1 Horizon Canopy: I haven't actually used the card in any testing since it went back in. Now it's out again. I'm content with the total number of lands in the deck right now, and Horizon Canopy was the one I chose to remove this time around.

    -1 Liliana of the Veil: I noticed that when I did get to play her in testing, all I did was use her +1 to put dredgers into my graveyard. Her -2 seems weak for multiplayer and her ultimate is just going to draw attacks.

    -1 Ray of Revelation: I have other ways to kill enchantments, and this was taking up a slot that could to something more generally useful.

    -1 Reassembling Skeleton: A 1/1 that has little synergy with the rest of the deck.

    -1 Scapeshift: Cutting two land-based tutors could be a big step in the wrong direction, but Scapeshift just seemed too expensive for what it could do in this deck. I mostly just used it to make Marit Lage anyway.

    -1 Swords to Plowshares: Good for early game survival against some opponents, but I have other, more accessible removal in this deck.

    -1 Tarmogoyf: This is a questionable cut, as Tarmogoyf is almost certain to be a big, cheap creature for early game defense. But I hope not to need that, and I have some other options in the event that I do need it.

    +1 Angel of Despair: Having this alongside Ashen Rider is really good, and being able to destroy my own permanents can actually be useful sometimes. Most of the time, it's just an awesome removal effect with a 5/5 flying body, which is fine. So this card is coming back into the deck.

    +1 Boneyard Wurm: I've never been sold on Lhurgoyf for this deck because it costs four mana and I can do all sorts of cool combo tricks instead with that. Boneyard Wurm only costs two mana for what will quickly become a very big creature.

    +1 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord: I opted not to make Jarad my commander back when I first developed this deck. I do think Karador makes a much better commander for this concept. Jarad is tricky to evaluate here. He's like a better version of Lhurgoyf, but his second ability requires the right kind of fodder to be effective and his third ability is unlikely to see much use in this deck. It's that second ability and its potential with cards like Boneyard Wurm that has me wanting to test Jarad.

    +1 Lord of Extinction: Well, it's an instant kill shot with Jarad, and it's also pretty lethal against anyone who can't chump-block it or hit it with a removal spell.

    +1 Miren, the Moaning Well: I'm adding several creatures to this deck that have high toughness. Miren would seem to offer more utility now than Horizon Canopy did. So I'm giving this card another shot.

    +1 Nighthowler: Once I noticed the synergy that this would have with Karador, I knew I had to try it.

    +1 Phyrexian Delver: Just because I can't have a second copy of Karmic Guide in this deck.

    +1 Splinterfright: What's not to like?

    +1 Sun Titan: I can think of so many ways to exploit that ability, especially now that my deck has Saffi Eriksdotter.

    +1 Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter: I wanted another sacrifice outlet. This one is a seven-drop creature, but it can do far more than Carrion Feeder.

    Edit: -1 City of Brass
    +1 Mana Confluence
  15. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Well, I thought my deck was pretty good, but I finally got to play it against real opponents in several games and it generally got trounced. I knew my deck was in trouble when one of my opponents led with a Nihil Spellbomb, then my other opponent dropped a Tormod's Crypt. I kept almost fighting through the hate, but it wasn't enough. The one game I did win was two-headed giant and both of my opponents got off to slow starts, so I Entombed Elesh Norn, brought her back with Dread Return, and beat them down while my partner got Athreos online and pitched in to help finish them off. My first instinct is to build a more broken deck, but we all know how that has worked out in the past. But really, overall I had fun and am not displeased with the deck. I think I had some bad luck, but also that there are some improvements to be made...
  16. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    I've neglected this deck to focus on other formats, but I don't feel like retiring it just yet. Let's see about updating it. Here are some possible inclusions that weren't available the last time I played this deck...

    Monastery Mentor
    Merciless Executioner
    Sidisi, Undead Vizier
    Dragonlord Dromoka
    Kytheon, Hero of Akros
    Graveblade Marauder
    Liliana, Heretical Healer
    Nissa, Vastwood Seer
    Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
    Emeria Shepherd
    Smothering Abomination
    Greenwarden of Murasa
    Brood Butcher
    Canopy Vista

    Additionally, there are some other cards that I've considered for this deck for the past several months, but they're not in yet...

    False Prophet
    Fierce Empath
    Putrid Imp
    Riftsweeper

    Thoughts?
  17. Terentius The Instigator

    I don't think you can do anything about graveyard hate; does that mean you need to be able to wage a stronger ground war? In what other areas do you think the deck is lacking?

    Sidisi seems like he'd synergize well, especially if he can be fit into a reanimation combo of some sort.

    Not sure how Kytheon fits?

    Dromoka is a solid beater with Lifelink (invaluable in free for all) and a sweet controlling effect.

    False Prophet is a friend to anyone who's okay with wiping the board, but obviously he'd need to survive the turn after he's played. I used to run him in my Enchantment deck when it had less creatures, and allow my opponents to bet big at the start of the game when I knew I had a slower hand, and then drop FP to gut them.
  18. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    The only graveyard hate I've been unable to do anything about is Stonecloaker, but I hesitate to tweak the whole deck to deal with that one card. If multiple people are packing enough graveyard hate or if one person weirdly commits to it, then I probably just lose. Otherwise, graveyard hate is generally something one-shot (like Bojuka Bog, which I can recover from) or something that sits on the board (like Leyline of the Void, which I can blow up with Qasali Pridemage or something). Obviously graveyard hate is a problem for a deck like this, but it's not completely insurmountable.

    None? I mean, I've looked at other Karador-based Commander decks and I think that mine is totally the best one out there. I do want to make a few more refinements, but I've come reasonably close to pushing the whole concept of a dedicated dredge deck in Commander as far as it'll go.

    Sidisi is a lady. A snake lady. As for synergies, she'd be bonkers. At a minimum, Karador turns her into a reusable tutor for five mana.

    Notably, planeswalkers are pretty lackluster in this deck. I've had several suggestions for including this planeswalker or that one, and people just don't seem to realize that those cards are probably just going to get dredged away and sit in my graveyard all game. However, the new Magic Origins planeswalkers change that. I can pull them from my graveyard as creatures, then possibly flip them. They're tricky to evaluate, because they provide a lot of potential value for a cheap initial investment, but no one thing that they do is so amazing that it is game-breaking. Three of these guys fit into my colors, and I'm not sure about any of them. In Kytheon's case...

    -He's a one-drop, potentially indestructible blocker. As an actual first turn one-drop, he'd not be very compelling, but one-drops are nice with Karador because I can throw one on the board while using the rest of my mana for the turn on something more important.
    -Once I can afford to start swinging at people, he gets in easily and transforms.
    -His +2 can kill an annoying creature by forcing it to into my lethal blockers.
    -His +1 is just downright good.
    -His 0 wouldn't matter much, but would let him turn into a creature to be sacrificed to something in a pinch.
    -Once he inevitably dies, he's a one-drop creature in my graveyard, which is fodder for all sorts of things in this deck.

    No single one of those factors is enough to devote a slot to him. On the other hand, in ideal situations where all of those aspects see use in the same game, he'd be extremely potent. Reality is somewhere in between. I'm leaning toward not devoting a slot to Kytheon, but I do think he and the other Origins walkers are really tough to evaluate.

    Yeah, the question there is whether the anti-disruption ability is sweet enough to take a slot in this deck. I can get bigger bodies and I can get better lifegain, but having all of those things in the same package just might be worth it.

    He doesn't have to survive. This is more like a Wrath of God option for a deck that eschews sorceries because they're hard to cast from the graveyard. I hesitate to run this card if I don't increase the number of sacrifice outlets, but the idea is to sac my whole army to an outlet, sac False Prophet, and then (with Prophet's ability on the stack), sac my outlet to itself. My opponent's creatures all go away. So do mine, but they're safely in my graveyard, a place from which I can summon them because that's what my whole deck is about.
  19. Terentius The Instigator

    Ah I see, he has merit because he starts as a creature, whereas other Planeswalkers would be useless to you if they were dredged away. I guess I'm still trying to wrap my head around how dredge works.

    My bad, the card I was thinking of is Planar Collapse. And that's not even a creature. I had a friend who ran False Prophet in a Sneak Attack deck way back in the day; maybe that's why I got them confused.
  20. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Oh, that's why you said enchantment deck!

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