Furnace of Rath and Orim's Thunder

Discussion in 'Rules Questions' started by jcredberry, Nov 26, 2002.

  1. jcredberry Gochan Warlord

    If I play an Orim's Thunder with kicker targeting a Furnace of Rath, will it double the damage asigned to its controller???

    I think this rule handles the situation:

    413.2f If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures in play), the answer is determined when the effect is applied. The effect uses the current information of a specific permanent if that permanent is still in play, or of a specific card in the stated zone; otherwise, the effect uses the last known information the card or permanent had before leaving that zone. The exception is that static abilities can't use last known information; see rule 412.5. If the ability text states that a permanent does something, it's the permanent as it exists (or most recently existed) that does it, not the ability.

    But the rule 412.5 gives me doubts:

    412.5. Unlike spells and other kinds of abilities, static abilities can't use a card or permanent's last known information for purposes of determining how their effects are applied.

    Furnace of Rath has an static ability taht creates a sustitution effect, as the following rules state:

    412.1. A static ability may generate a continuous effect or a prevention or replacement effect. These effects last as long as the permanent with the static ability remains in play.

    419.1. Replacement and prevention effects are continuous effects that watch for a particular event to happen and then completely or partially replace that event. (A prevention effect replaces an event with nothing or with a lessened version of the event.) These effects act like "shields" around whatever they're affecting. All replacement effects use the word "instead" to indicate what events will be replaced with other events, and prevention effects use "prevent" to indicate what events will not occur. Abilities that contain "instead" or "prevent" generate replacement or prevention effects, respectively.

    I'm not sure but I believe rule 412.5 has precedence and the damage is not doubled. What do you think???

  2. train The Wildcard!!!...

    The thunder should deal double the CMC of the Furnace...

    Orim's Thunder
    Color= White Type= Instant Cost= 2W AP(C)
    Text (AP): Kicker {R}. ; Destroy target artifact or enchantment. If you paid the kicker cost, ~this~ deals damage equal to that artifact or enchantment's converted mana cost to target creature.

    Furnace of Rath
    Color= Red Type= Enchantment Cost= 1RRR TE(R)
    Text (TE+errata): If a source would deal damage to a creature or player, it deals double that damage to that creature or player instead. [Oracle 1999/07/21]

    The "if you paid the kicker" is checked before the resolution... So the Furnace would still modify the amount of damage... Then the Thunder resolves and destroys the furnace and dealing the damage...

    Jigglypuff or EricBess will correct me if this is wrong...

    Here's a little more on replacement...

    T.10 - Replacement and Prevention Effects
    T.10.1 - Replacement and prevention effects are similar to continuous effects. They watch for a type of event and replace it with a different one, modify it in some way, or prevent it from happening. [CompRules 1999/04/23]
    T.10.2 - Replacement effects can be identified by the word "instead". [CompRules 1999/04/23]
    T.10.4 - Replacement and prevention effects wait around for the next event which they apply to, then do their thing.
    T.10.8 - Each replacement effect gets only one opportunity to apply to each event.

    T.10.Ruling.1 - Replacement and prevention effects must exist before the appropriate event occurs. They cannot go back in time to change something that has already happened. [CompRules 1999/04/23]

    T.10.Ruling.3 - Replacement effects can be applied to any costs paid when announcing a spell or ability. [D'Angelo 1999/05/01]

    T.10.Ruling.5 - Replacement effects do not check whether or not the new action can be completed. They make the replacement any time they apply. For example, a card that replaces "lose 1 life" with "remove 1 card from your library" will make the replacement even if you have no cards in your library. [CompRules 1999/11/01]
  3. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    Sorry, train.

    You carry out the instructions on the Thunder in succession. First you destroy the Furnace, then you deal damage. Since the Furnace is no longer in play at the time, it cannot replace the damage.

    (- Steve -)
  4. train The Wildcard!!!...

    See - I did so much thinking so early in the a.m. it got puff twisted up...;) :p
  5. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    Fixed the problem.

    (- Steve -)
  6. jcredberry Gochan Warlord

    So, the problem doesn't have anything to do with the cited rules??? It just have to be determined by the text on Orim's Chant??? I thought both effects (destroying the enchantment and dealing damage) happened simultaneously, but you are telling me they come one after another... Is that so???

  7. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    The steps are carried out sequentially. The game considers the resolution of a spell or ability to be one action. That means that no player can gain priority during the resolution of a spell or ability.

    413.2b The controller of the spell or ability follows its instructions in the order written. However, replacement effects may modify these actions. In some cases, later text on the card may modify the meaning of earlier text (for example, "Destroy target creature. It can't be regenerated" or "Counter target spell. Put it on top of its owner's library instead of into its owner's graveyard.") Don't just apply effects step by step without thinking in these cases-read the whole card and apply the rules of English to the text.

    (- Steve -)
  8. train The Wildcard!!!...

    I prefer the rules of the Widowmaker2000(TM)!!!...

    But that's right.

    Now my question is... Triggers occuring because of something happening during resolution, wait until a playr receives priority, than go on the stack... which means every part of the resolution will occur, before any triggers stack, right???...:confused:
  9. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    It's either that or the triggers go on the stack but the current effect continues to finish resolving; either way, the effect resolves before a player gains priority and the stack is "looked at" again.

    Are you thinking it makes a difference if triggered effects wait until they're put on the stack?
  10. train The Wildcard!!!...

    I was... but that's because something may be modified, like the rule says by something that happens later during the resolution...

    But, I can't seem to think of any examples... it's early... if they hit me or I have the question, I'll post...;)
  11. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Almost anywhere you look, possibly on your block, people are violating the rules of English grammar. They're doing it not only when they speak and write, but also, brazenly, on painted signs in front of their homes.

    I'm referring to those common signs telling you which family lives in a particular house, such as "The Brown's" or "The Smith's." The correct way to do it would be "The Browns" or "The Smiths." Adding the apostrophe makes it possessive and emphasizes that they own the house.

    But hey, they live there, don't they? Who else would own it? The boogeyman? The bank? (Whoops, I repeat myself.)
  12. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    Well, about the whole sign thing, maybe the signs actually mean "The Smith family lives here." not "The Smith's own this house." That would mean that "The Smiths" is correct because it would be the plural form.

    (- Steve -)
  13. train The Wildcard!!!...

    No wonder I didn't like English... It's always causing disputes.;)
  14. EricBess Active Member

    Something might trigger mid resolution, but it waits until someone would receive priority to go on the stack. I don't think that really applies here, however, because we are talking about continuous effects, not triggered ones.

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