First real post...

Discussion in 'Casual Decks/Variants/Etc' started by Ping, Dec 18, 2004.

  1. Ping New Member

    Alright, This my first post (i think...maybe a second) and I need serious help with my deck. I'm playing a Kami deck (mostly creatures from Champions of Kamigawa). I need suggestions for cards to put in, take out, and pretty much "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING WITH THAT GARBAGE CARD?!!?1/?1//!?1"

    Okay...No mocking me...

    Lands:
    Forest x12
    Plains x9
    Cloudcrest Lake x2
    Ancient Den x2
    Ice Flow x1
    Tranquil Garden x1

    White Creatures:
    Lantern Kami x4
    Kami of Old Stone x1
    Kami of the Painted Road x1
    Leonin Elder x1
    Kami of Ancient Law x4
    Sensei Golden-Tail x1
    Myojin of Cleansing Fire x1
    Innocence Kami x1
    Konda, Lord of Eiganjo x1

    Green Creatures:
    Venerable Kumo x1
    Tangle Asp x1
    Vine Kami x1
    Moss Kami x4
    Kodama of the South Tree x1
    Feral Deceiver x1

    Spells (Non-creature, white/green):
    Steelshaper's Gift x1
    Disenchant x1
    Awe Strike x1
    All Sun's Dawn x1
    Strength of Cedars x1
    Serpent Skin x1
    Honden of Life's Web x1
    Time of Need x1

    Artifacts:
    Myr Servitor x3
    Ferropede x1
    Flint Golem x1
    Specter's Shroud x1
    Tatsumasa, the Dragon's Fang x1
    Kusari-Gama x1
    Banshee's Blade x1
    Sunbeam Spellbomb x1
    Slagwurm Armor x1
    Whispersilk Cloak x1
    Neurok Hoversail x1
    Sensei's Divining Top x1
    Long-Forgotten Gohei x1
    Scabbling Claws x1

    That should total about 75 (± 1). I only started playing again in Darksteel. I have mostly Kamigawa cards though so...Please help? I'm tired of getting my oink handed to me >.<
  2. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    I am not at all well-versed in the cardpool of CoK (but now I finally have Appr. again and can look them up easily) so I am not going to be as much help here as I might like. I see one glaring issue which can be addressed easily enough...

    This deck is 75 cards. It needs to be cut down to 60 cards. If you understand why this is, then that's good. The issue is then what needs to be cut.

    If not...

    75 card decks are A LOT worse than 60 card decks. They have 15 extra slots getting in the way of drawing the cards they want to see the most. Every deck relies on drawing certain cards in order to win. In order to see your best cards (in addition to including four copies of such cards) you want your deck to be as small as possible.
  3. Ping New Member

    I figured I'd need to cut cards, but as you said "Which ones?".
  4. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    I would take the land count down to 24 (once the deck is 60 cards). I am not sure if that would be the perfect number for this deck, but it's probably pretty close...

    Ice Floe sucks and there is no good reason to waste a land drop on it.

    Cloudcrest Lake is also not very good. If you can replace it with Brushland or Elfhame Palace, that would be nice (Windswept Heath would be great too). If not, probably just stick to basic lands or find a better color fixer...
  5. Nightstalkers Creature — Nightstalker

    Might think about dumping the Time of Need for an Eladamri's Call. In retrospect, you can get just about whatever critter you need instead of just a legend.

    I don't necessarily see the point of scrabbling claws... if you want to use it to get rid of specific cards an opponent discards, then you might try throwing it into a sideboard because I don't see a lot of decks out there that actually reanimate everything. Try throwing in another spellbomb or something if you want the draw ability.

    You might just get rid of the whole scrabbling claws and spellbomb altogether. There are other cards out there, look at all the cards with your apprentice program.
  6. Ping New Member

    Actually, Scabbling Claws is ment for when I go against my friend's black deck. He uses Crucible of Worlds + Lake of Dead, so I essentially force him to lose his swamps, but I'll Side-Deck it as you suggest.
  7. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    Okay. I think you're running into a classic problem here; you're trying to use one deck to do two different things. In particular, I see a focus on artifacts and a focus on Kami, and I think you need to choose a direction. I see the start of a good Kami deck here, so let's focus on that.

    Lands:
    Forest x12
    Plains x9
    Cloudcrest Lake x2
    Ancient Den x2
    Ice Flow x1
    Tranquil Garden x1


    Take out Ice Flow. Use your lands to produce mana, not stop an attacker you aren't even sure is coming. Also, take out your Ancient Dens for two more Plains; an opponent packing plenty of artifact hate could kick your mana base in the nuts, and that's a Bad Thing. Finally, lose the Cloudcrest Lakes and Tranquil Gardens, and put in one more Plains and two Elfhame Palaces. I've seen a bajillion people try to play with the depletion duals, and everyone comes to the same conclusion they reached back when they were called Vec Townships and Thalakos Lowlands: They Stink. And finally, your land count is a little high, so let's cut one apiece of Forest and Plains.
    So your land looks like this:
    11x Forest
    11x Plains
    2x Elfhame Palace
    Much more streamlined and easier to handle.

    White Creatures:
    Lantern Kami x4
    Kami of Old Stone x1
    Kami of the Painted Road x1
    Leonin Elder x1
    Kami of Ancient Law x4
    Sensei Golden-Tail x1
    Myojin of Cleansing Fire x1
    Innocence Kami x1
    Konda, Lord of Eiganjo x1


    Let's look at each individual Kami.
    Lantern Kami - Yes. Suntail Hawk was always good, and being a cheap spirit helps with Spiritcraft.
    Kami of Old Stone - Do you need a wall in this deck? Well, let's put it this way. Are you going to win by attacking, or blocking? Attacking, clearly; this deck is beatdown, and you should treat it as such. Byebye, Old Stone.
    Kami of the Painted Road - See, now, this guy I like. A spirit or arcane spell or two, and he waltzes right through your enemy's forces and there's nothing your opponent can do about it. I'lll probably add one more of these.
    Leonin Elder - Completely out-of-place in this deck, and one-ofs are seldom a good idea anyway. Bad kitty.
    Kami of Ancient Law - 2/2s for 2 mana are always a solid investment, especially in beatdown decks; this one is no exception, especially with a Demystify built in. They stay.
    Sensei Golden-Tail - I said I dislike one-ofs, but this guy is just too good to take out. He's sort of like a Glorious Anthem for your guys, albeit one at a time. It'll be hard to cut him - we'll think it over.
    Myojin of Cleansing Fire - What? What's this guy doing in a creature deck? I guess he could be an okay finisher...but so could several of your cards. And if your opponent whips a Rend Spirit out on him, you just hosed yourself. This is not the deck for the Myojin.
    Innocence Kami - Not altogether bad. His ability to tap down opposing creatures AND stand up to blocking a little bit makes him decent, even if his ability is tough to use more than twice in a turn.
    Konda - What's he doing in here? He's not a spirit...and while he's fun and all, you don't want to be paying 7 mana for a 3/3, even if he CAN pretty much walk over and smack your opponent whenever he chooses.
    So, after cuts, we have:
    4x Lantern Kami
    2x Kami of the Painted Road
    4x Kami of Ancient Law
    1x Sensei Golden-Tail
    1x Innocence Kami
    I know, lots of blood on the field, but wait. We're not done yet.

    Green Creatures:
    Venerable Kumo x1
    Tangle Asp x1
    Vine Kami x1
    Moss Kami x4
    Kodama of the South Tree x1
    Feral Deceiver x1


    Wow. You're all over the place here. Where do I begin...
    Venerable Kumo - Gone. I'm sorry, but 5 mana for a 2/3 that can block flyers is a pretty rancid bargain in general. Giant Spider doesn't have it so bad, and you don't see people tripping over themselves to play it, do you?
    Tangle Asp - Gone. Not only does he not fit into the deck, but he's born to die...or to swing for a ghastly 1 point a turn. Bleah.
    Vine Kami - Gone. 7 mana for a 4/4 that takes two blockers...which is usually what your opponent will use anyway to kill him? Augh. I KNOW green has better bargains than this.
    Moss Kami - Now, this guy isn't so bad. He's big, he's beefy, and his P/T are closer to his casting cost. Still, he's definitely on the upper end of your mana curve, so let's cut one out.
    Kodama of the South Tree - Excellent card, tailor-made for this sort of deck. He stays, hands-down.
    Feral Deceiver - He's not awful...but he's a bit overcosted for green unless his special ability triggers. Still, if it does, he's a bit undercosted...and he's a halfway decent spirit. Let's leave one in for now and see where we go with this.
    So after cuts, we have:
    3x Moss Kami
    1x Kodama of the South Tree
    1x Feral Deceiver
    I know, I know. Blood in the water! But there's more to cut.

    Spells (Non-creature, white/green):
    Steelshaper's Gift x1
    Disenchant x1
    Awe Strike x1
    All Sun's Dawn x1
    Strength of Cedars x1
    Serpent Skin x1
    Honden of Life's Web x1
    Time of Need x1


    Steelshaper's Gift - Let's go ahead and leave this in for now. It never hurts to have a bit of equipment hunting in there, as I think this deck will wind up wanting equipment in the end.
    Disenchant - Turn it into Naturalize to make this deck Standard-legal. Better yet, turn it into Wear Away to make this deck CHK-block.
    Awe Strike - Too situational...a bit of a one-shot. Granted, it's a fun trick, but will it win you the game? Probably not.
    All Sun's Dawn - What? Why is this even a consideration? Hasta.
    Strength of Cedars - Meh. Honestly, most of the time I've seen this card, it's turned out to be overkill and too expensive. Let's lose it in favor of something better.
    Serpent Skin - See, this is where the fun is. Instant speed, P/T boost, regeneration...always liked this card. Keep it.
    Honden of Life's Web - Hondens are bad unless you have multiples. You don't. Bye.
    Time of Need - Your legendary creatures are fun, but not so important to you that you have to have them Right Now. Gone.
    After cuts:
    1x Steelshaper's Gift
    1x Wear Away
    1x Serpent Skin
    We've got one more round of cuts to make.

    Artifacts:
    Myr Servitor x3
    Ferropede x1
    Flint Golem x1
    Specter's Shroud x1
    Tatsumasa, the Dragon's Fang x1
    Kusari-Gama x1
    Banshee's Blade x1
    Sunbeam Spellbomb x1
    Slagwurm Armor x1
    Whispersilk Cloak x1
    Neurok Hoversail x1
    Sensei's Divining Top x1
    Long-Forgotten Gohei x1
    Scabbling Claws x1


    Yikes. Where do I start...
    Myr Servitor - Cute trick. Not right for the deck. Best-case scenario, you get a couple of semi-immortal 1/1s. Bleah. Gone.
    Ferropede - Utterly irrelevant. Gone.
    Flint Golem - Could this possibly be more random? 4 mana for a 2/3 that mills as it (probably) dies. Gone.
    Specter's Shroud - Equipment #1 I'd consider keeping. Let's leave it for now.
    Tatsumasa, the Dragon's Fang - We'll cut this, but I'll explain why; we're going to turn it into something better.
    Kusari-Gama - Equipment #2 I'd consider keeping. Turns blocking any one creature into a losing proposition for your opponent.
    Banshee's Blade - Gone. No starting P/T boost = hard to charge = tough to use.
    Sunbeam Spellbomb - Lifegain is irrelevant. This card will not be assimilated.
    Slagwurm Armor - You want your equipment to help you kill your opponent, not put on pants.
    Whispersilk Cloak - Equipment #3 I'd consider keeping. Always fun to put on something big and fat, and turns any given creature into a hard-to-answer clock.
    Neurok Hoversail - Equipment #4 I'd consider keeping. Evasion is good in decks that rely on combat, and yours will.
    Sensei's Divining Top - I'm sorry...I know people love this card. But I usually see people so busy diddling with the Top that they forget to do things like WIN. Let's cut it.
    Long-Forgotten Gohei - YES. Yes, yes, yes. You must play this. You must get MORE of these. We're going to add three in.
    Scrabbling Claws - Teh randumb. Let's focus, people.
    After the cut:
    1x Specter's Shroud
    1x Kusari-Gama
    1x Whispersilk Cloak
    1x Neurok Hoversail
    4x Long-Forgotten Gohei

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So, after all the cuts, your deck looks like this:

    11x Forest
    11x Plains
    2x Elfhame Palace

    4x Lantern Kami
    2x Kami of the Painted Road
    4x Kami of Ancient Law
    1x Sensei Golden-Tail
    1x Innocence Kami

    3x Moss Kami
    1x Kodama of the South Tree
    1x Feral Deceiver

    1x Steelshaper's Gift
    1x Wear Away
    1x Serpent Skin

    1x Specter's Shroud
    1x Kusari-Gama
    1x Whispersilk Cloak
    1x Neurok Hoversail
    4x Long-Forgotten Gohei

    Hurts, don't it? But don't worry. In my next post, I'm going to suggest good ideas to fill in those slots.
  8. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    Okay. In my last post, I basically tore your deck down to its skeleton. Let's rebuild it faster, better, stronger.

    11x Forest
    11x Plains
    2x Elfhame Palace

    4x Lantern Kami
    2x Kami of the Painted Road
    4x Kami of Ancient Law
    1x Sensei Golden-Tail
    1x Innocence Kami

    3x Moss Kami
    1x Kodama of the South Tree
    1x Feral Deceiver

    1x Steelshaper's Gift
    1x Wear Away
    1x Serpent Skin

    1x Specter's Shroud
    1x Kusari-Gama
    1x Whispersilk Cloak
    1x Neurok Hoversail
    4x Long-Forgotten Gohei


    First of all, we've got 24 land, 12 white creatures, 5 green creatures, and 12 non-creature spells. That's a lot of non-creature cards for a beatdown deck, so let's get to work on trimming some.

    Steelshaper's Gift - We're ditching most of the equipment in this deck, as you can see below, so this card becomes fairly useless.
    Wear Away - As useful as this card is, especially when spliced, it's not likely to take out anything harmful that Kami of the Ancient Law won't take out for you. Let's focus a little more keenly.
    Serpent Skin - Probably the hardest cut to make, as regeneration is very nice and the surprise effects makes for nice trades. But you don't want to trade, you want to smash face...and you can actually do a wee bit better than this.
    Specter's Shroud - A fun bit of equipment, but +1/+0 isn't enough to justify its place in this deck, and its discard ability will probably either be useless as your opponent plays out quickly enough to stem the tide of creatures, or will be useless because your opponent is already dead. Gone.
    Neurok Hoversail - This card wants to be Whispersilk Cloak...and Whispersilk Cloak isn't going to make the cut either. Gone.
    Whispersilk Cloak - As much as I love evasion and untargetability, this deck isn't going to win because it survived your opponent's blockers, it's going to win because it overwhelms said blockers.
    Kusari-Gama - Ultimately, this card says, "Equipped creature gets "2: +1/+0 until end of turn"." Which is fun, but we can do better than that.

    Which leaves us with 4x Long-Forgotten Gohei as your non-creatures. But there are other cards that can help us here:
    4x Kodama's Might - Imagine, if you will, casting Kodama's Might onto a Kami of the Painted Road and splicing a second Might onto it, then playing that second might. That's +6/+6 and two doses of protection for three mana, as well as triggering other fun Spiritcraft effects. How could you resist?

    So that's eight non-creature spells. Combined with 24 land, that leaves us 28 slots for creatures. Let's see what we can muster.

    4x Lantern Kami
    2x Kami of the Painted Road
    4x Kami of Ancient Law
    1x Sensei Golden-Tail
    1x Innocence Kami

    3x Moss Kami
    1x Kodama of the South Tree
    1x Feral Deceiver


    A nice start, but we'd like to have an even spread of creatures, so let's try to get 9 more green creatures and 2 more white creatures.

    Kami of the Hunt (2G)
    Creature - Spirit
    Whenever you play a Spirit or Arcane spell, Kami of the Hunt gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
    2/2

    Frankly, I'm annoyed at myself for forgetting this card's existence in our first run. Whenever you play...let's face it, pretty much ANYTHING in this deck, he's going to get a boost, making him a 3/3 for 3 mana...and that's hard to argue with. Slip four in.

    Burr Grafter (3G)
    Creature - Spirit
    Sacrifice Burr Grafter: Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
    Soulshift 3
    2/2

    I know, I know, he's a 2/2 for 4. But he can throw himself onto another creature at will, and that fairly respectable Soulshift means he can grab back more than a few of your spirits from the dead. Let's toss two in.

    Rootrunner (2GG)
    Creature - Spirit
    GG, Sacrifice Rootrunner: Put target land on top of its owner's library.
    3/3

    4 mana for a 3/3 isn't all that bad any which way you look at it, and his ability to force a land to the top of your opponent's library (thereby conclusively deciding that the next card your opponent draws is NOT the answer he needs) can't be overlooked. Let's slip three in.

    Finally, let's remove Innocence Kami (sort of a Win More) card and Sensei Golden-Tail (fun, but you'll like its replacement better) for a card so obvious, I'm embarassed I forgot it:

    Kabuto Moth (2W)
    Creature - Spirit
    Flying
    T: Target creature gets +1/+2 until end of turn.
    1/2

    Just like Burr Grafter, he can throw himself onto another creature...or swing on his own, if you really have to. +1/+2 distributed anywhere you want anytime you want is a nasty little ability, and can save your creatures from burn, bad blocks, or what-have-you.

    And finally, let's remove that Feral Deceiver for another Kodama of the South Tree; I know he's legendary, but his ability is really explosive, and you probably won't find more than one in a game.

    So at last, we have this:

    11x Forest
    11x Plains
    2x Elfhame Palace

    4x Lantern Kami
    2x Kami of the Painted Road
    4x Kami of Ancient Law
    4x Kabuto Moth

    3x Moss Kami
    4x Kami of the Hunt
    3x Rootrunner
    2x Burr Grafter
    2x Kodama of the South Tree

    4x Kodama's Might
    4x Long-Forgotten Gohei


    Now go smash some face. :)
  9. Reverend Love New Member

    I have no idea what Istanbul said....his book was too daunting. He probably is correct due to the sheer size of his posts :p

    I'd play a Thief of Hope deck. It's got a few things going for it.

    1. The cards are super cheap. Some of the killer rares for the deck are considered general trade bate. You'll be able to put this thing with minimal hassle

    2. It's the beginning of the block. So there's lots of spirits coming, and hopefully some more arcane spells as well.

    3. Lots and lots of synergy. Decks win with this chewy goodness.

    So in conclusion;

    4 Thief of Hope
    4 Long-Forgotten Gohei
    And whatever Arcane/Spirit card strikes your fancy.
  10. Ping New Member

    Thanks a bunch guys. Now I just need to get Elfhame Palaces, another Kodama of the South Tree, some Kodama's Might (I may have these...)...and a couple others :confused:
  11. Killer Joe Active Member

    Istanbul! Well done!

    I know you don't need MY approval for your excellent deck analysis, but every word and bit of advice was not only helpful but also with proven reasons as to WHY your ideas are worth considering. Not to mention your "gritty" sense of humor :D

    Myself, et al, would've just posted another deck (most likely a net.dec) instead of taking the time to do a card by card analysis.

    Again, BRAVO!

    Well done my friend!
  12. Homestar Who invited this guy?

    looks good after isty got done with it.

    i made up a fun little spirit deck, well, its basded around spirit/arcane anyway
    :p

    Creatures:
    Meloku clouded mirror x3
    Kodama of the south tree x3
    Azusa, lost but seeking x3
    Budoka Gardener x1
    Sakura Tribe Elder x4
    Hana Kami x3

    Spells
    Time of Need x4
    Kodamas might x4
    Reach through mists x3
    Kodamas Reach x4
    Echoing Courage x4

    Land:
    12 forest
    12 Island

    Can anyone figure out the combo/base/strategy? no one usually can just by looking at it, i wanna tets you guys ;)
  13. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    Rev - In a white/green deck?

    Killer Joe - *blush* Thanks! I used to do this stuff all the time.

    Homestar - If I had to guess, I'd say that the theme is to pull a bunch of land into play, seize Budoka Gardener (and possibly Kodama of the South Tree), flip BG and start making big tokens, and (if you decided to snag the Kodama) using Arcane spells to make them trample.

    Is that about the size of it?
  14. Killer Joe Active Member

    I know, I used to read your articles on,....now what was the name of the website? It was like a School of magic or a learn to play Magic site.

    Being old sucks!
  15. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    http://magiccampus.com

    Now defunct. Ah, my glory days...I still have the foil 6E Balduvian Horde I won for writing my article on how to play Magic.
  16. Reverend Love New Member

    Splash black for the thief. Especially in a green Arcane deck using reaches.
  17. Homestar Who invited this guy?

    haa, close but no cigar. get lotsa lands, and stck ur hand with a buncha spirits/arcanes, get meloku and the kodama of the south out, then, once u have all this , dont play anything, let them go, st thier EOT make tokens from meloku to where you can still play ll ur spirits, then, next turn, play them all, ur little flying meloku disciples get huge, and u beat face.
  18. Reverend Love New Member

    Something like this:

    48 Cards. Room for 12 other cards from a color of your choosing.

    Creatures: 14
    4 Thief of Hope
    2 Kodama of the South Tree
    4 Rootrunner
    4 Hana Kami

    Spells: 6
    2 Soulless Revival
    4 Kodama’s Reach

    Artifacts: 4
    4 Long-Forgotten Gohei

    Lands: 24

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