Estilo Ransac

Discussion in 'Rules Questions' started by EricBess, Dec 2, 2002.

  1. EricBess Active Member

    You have a Disciple of Law in play (pro:Red). You cast Sleight of Mind on the Disciple, changing all occurances of Blue to Black. It resolves. You later cast Sleight of Mind on the same Disciple, changing all occurances of Red to Blue.

    After the second Sleight of Mind resolves, what color is the Disciple protected from and why?

    Now, same question with the same Sleights, but this time, Instead of Disciple of Law, you have a Sabertooth Nishoba (pro:Red and pro:Blue) When all is said and done, what color is the Nishoba protected from?
  2. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Blue... Timestamp...

    Black/Blue... same deal...
  3. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    1. Pro: Black
    2. Blue and Black

    Thanks to this rule

    With the Sabertooth, you had already changed Blue to Black; it didn't exist as a "potential" so when you changed Red to Blue, it doesn't get switched to Black automatically <crosses fingers>
  4. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Spidey and I agree on the 2nd one...


    Spidey - Was that from the Comp. Rules?

    Let's see which is right for the 1st...

    *Crosses his Fizzle!...*

  5. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Yeah, it from from the "expanded" explanation for the Comp Rules.
  6. EricBess Active Member

    Disciple of Law starts out pro:Red.

    You cast Sleight, changing Blue to Black. It now has pro:Red (duh). When you cast Sleight later, changing Red to Blue, you now have 2 abilities affecting the card, but there is a dependency because the first Sleight will do nothing prior to the second Sleight.

    Per the dependency rules, you therefore apply the second Sleight first.

    So, the Disciple ends up with pro:Black.

    Concerning the Nishoba, I was going to say that I agreed with you, but now that I reread the Dependency definition, I'm not sure. It seems as if a dependency still exists, which would mean that the Nishoba would end up with Pro:Black twice. If at any point, there were a Sleight effect added that changed Black to Red (even before either of the other Sleights), however, then there would be a dependency loop and you would have to apply in timestamp order.
  7. Zero T Katama Silver Shadow Guardian

    Question. Isn't Sleight of Mind blue? Does It target? If so, the Nishoba not be able to be affected?
  8. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    Yes, the Sleight is blue and yes, it does target whatever permanent it is going to alter. So you couldn't even target the Nishoba in the first place. But we'll overlook that for now and focus on the question.

    (- Steve -)
  9. theorgg Slob

    The first slight couldn't even target the Nishoba. To quote an impersonator of Sean Connery on Celebrity Jepardy: "Below Me"

    *theorgg looks down at Ransac, whom he accidentally stepped on.

  10. Citanul New Member

    Greetings. Very interesting "train" of threads you have here :)

    I also think you just apply the effects in timestamp order; there are no dependencies. Reason is rule 418.3b which talks about continuous effects from resolved spells and abilities ("duration effects"). It basically says duration effects can't ever depend on anything, because that's the only way an effect can remain doing its stuff regardless of changes to what it applies to.

    Also, if Sleight of Mind was a permanent with a static ability, you could argue that its effect applies to spells and permanents, not color words (from the viewpoint of the dependency rule that is). (Much like Gravity Sphere doesn't depend on effects that make creatures fly.)

    Gravity Sphere:
    Info: Color=Red Type=Enchant World Cost=2R LG(R)
    Text(LG+errata): All creatures lose flying. [Oracle 1999/09/03]
    It removes Flying from all creatures in play when it enters play and from each creature as that creature enters play. It does not prevent Flying ability being given to the creature _after_ the Sphere is in play. [Duelist Magazine #2, Page 8]
    Extended tournaments (see Rule D.15) have always banned this card.
    Note - Also see Enchant World, Rule K.12.10.

    Sleight of Mind
    Change the text of target spell or permanent by replacing all instances of one color word with another. #(For example, you may change "target black spell" to "target blue spell.") (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)#

    418.3b Continuous effects from spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities that modify the characteristics or change the controller of one or more cards and/or permanents don't affect cards and/or permanents that weren't affected when the continuous effect began. Note that these work differently than continuous effects from static abilities. Continuous effects that don't modify characteristics or change the controller of cards and/or permanents modify the rules of the game, so they can affect cards and/or permanents that weren't affected when the continuous effect began.
    Example: An effect that reads "All white creatures get +1/+1 until end of turn" gives the bonus to all permanents that are white creatures when the spell or ability resolves-even if they change color later-and doesn't affect those that come into play or turn white afterward.
    Example: An effect that reads "Prevent all damage creatures would deal this turn" doesn't modify any card's or permanent's characteristics, so it's modifying the rules of the game. That means the effect will apply even to creatures that weren't in play when the continuous effect began. It also affects permanents that become creatures later in the turn.
  11. Zero T Katama Silver Shadow Guardian

    A thought though. You could cast the Sleights as Nishoba is on the stack.
  12. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Just say the Sleight is colorless if you need it to work for you to answer, everyone :)

    EricBess: Concerning the Nishoba, I don't know, it seems that if the Sleight can't affect the text right then, a dependency is set up per E.13.Ruling.1, but if the text can be affected when the Sleight resolves, it "happens" right then and there isn't a lingering effect that will stay around.

    In other words, when you change Blue to Black on the Nishoba, since there's text that can be affected, it gets changed and doesn't change any future additions of "Blue".

    That's my thinking of how it ought to work, whether it does is another matter :) Bring it up on the Judge's List! :p
  13. EricBess Active Member

    First off, I was thinking along the same lines as Katama. Slight can be cast on Nishoba as it is being cast, since it doesn't have pro:blue until it resolves.

    In fact, that might actually change the answer. The whole thing is very odd.

    Rule 418.3b, while of interest, does not apply. It is specifically referring to global duration effects. Sleight creates a continuous effect, not a duration effect, and it is specific to the target.

    That rule is more along the lines of effects that say, "all creatures with <foo> characteristic...", which is not what Sleight does. The bit about changing the rules has to do with the rest of the effect. For example, saying they can't block changes the rules. Saying they all get +1/+1 effects the permanents directly. I don't remember the name of the card, but the motivating force behind this change was the card "creatures without flying cannot block this turn".

    Getting back to the subject at hand, there may actually be a difference between casting Sleight on the spell and casting it on the permanent, which would mean that my original intent (and Spidy's answer) would be correct if cast that way. However, suppose both were cast when it was still on the stack. Same questions come up.

    Can anyone think of another creature that has protection from exactly two colors? What's the name of the Crusader guy that has pro:Black and pro:Red?
  14. Ransac CPA Trash Man

    First, the Disciple is pro: Blue.

    Second, the Nishoba is pro Red/Blue. Sleight of Hand cannot target it.
  15. theorgg Slob

    I agree. Sleight of Hand cannot target ANYTHING. :p
  16. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Someone hurry up and get us a definite answer on this one....

  17. EricBess Active Member

    The Disciple is pro:Black. The Nishoba is either Pro:Black (x2), or it is pro:Black, Pro:Blue. Based on the wording of the dependency, I'm going with just pro:Black (x2), but I can shoot it up the chain to the judges list.
  18. train The Wildcard!!!...

    *emerges form the fizzle...*


    *slowly sinks back into the fizzle...*

  19. Citanul New Member

    I'm not saying 418.3b applies here, I'm saying 418.3b implies that duration effects can't depend on other continuous effects (giving evidence to several NetRep rulings that state "resolved continuous effects" can't depend on anything). Also, a "duration" effect is merely an unofficial way of addressing a continuous effect from a resolved spell or ability. Doesn't matter if that duration is 'until the end of the game" (like the Sleights).

    I understand why "editing" effects are special, but I'm not convinced they're special in this case.
  20. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    418.3b implies no such thing. It merely defines the set of cards or permanents that a continuous effect that was generated from a spell, activated ability, or triggered ability will apply to.

    And I'm not completely sure as to what Jeff means by "Resolved continuous effects do no [sic] depend on anything."

    (- Steve -)

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