Discussion in 'Rules Questions' started by tyger51, Aug 7, 2000.
Yep. Any time you play for ante. Oh, and the italian gauntlets of chaos.
Ante cards aren't in play...
Bronze Tablet, Darkpact, Tempest Efreet, and Timmerian Fiends, are all cards which can change ownership of a card or cards in play.
Just thought I'd share that.
Perhaps I should have been clearer (I thought this was understood): What cards transfer ownership for cards in play for both players and end up in play?
Of the cards you mentioned, CT, it looks like Timmerian Fiends would be the best card, followed by Tempest Efreet (which requires you bounce the Black Vise first). Darkpact and Bronze Tablet aren't any good because the Black Vise wouldn't remain in play after the transfer (unless you're using Ring of Maf'rut or whatever).
If you flicker a permanant that you dont own, then it goes back to its owner..and it would have to retarget something.
I beleive thats how it works
Okay, let me know if I'm getting this right, now.
If there is a Black Vise in play, owned by an opponent and targetting you, and you somehow gain ownership of the black Vise, what happens?
Well, with Timmerian Fiends, the Black Vise is put into your graveyard, so retrieving it and playing it would of course allow you to choose any of your opponents as a target.
More interesting, however (and, I suspect, what you'd really like to know) is what happens when a Black Vise in play changes owners without leaving play.
Hmm... Okay, hypothetical card (cuz this isn't possible otherwise ):
In this case, the Black Vise does not leave play, and -- since you are now the controller -- you are also an illegal target. So during your upkeep the Black Vise does nothing.
Flicker it, and you'll get to choose a new target.
Now, what if you could gain ownership but not control?
In this case, the Black Vise will continue damaging you, since the target (you) is still an opponent of the controller.
Flicker it, and you not only will gain control of it, but naturally will get to choose the new target.
Thats good Chaos..but we are having a hard enough time trying to figure this out with the ACTUAL cards. Never mind imaginary cards
Okay, now say we add in Ring of Marouf. So, I get the fake bill of sale, because I can with my ring, and I play it and turn it back. since we're both previous owners of fake bill of sale, who gets control of it?
*slaps himself in the forehead*
I agree. Very doh.
okay, let's not muddy the waters further by asking questions about REALLY hypothetical situations with fake cards...
Anyway, now that we have the Black Vise scenario concerning ownership settled, I believe the original question was does in fact Flickering it allow you to choose the target? All Flicker says is that it "resets" the permanent, are we saying that included choosing a new target?
yes, you pick a new target. when u flicker a card, it comes into play in it's owners control with all coming into play abilities, no counters or enchantments.
Come on! Chaos turtle? Zadok? Hear my plea and answer!
Okay, since you REALLY want an answer...
I'd say word the card better so that it says "previous LAST owner" or something to that effect so you KNOW that the player who had ownership before the current owner gets it.
Directly answering your question, because of the wording it's muddy and who knows how one would interpret it (common sense would say the above way).
sigh. the owner is always the person who picks it up and puts it in their deck box when the game is over. ownership only changes with ante cards. you can control cards without owning them. ie control magic, dominate, bribery, et. al.
sorry if this still doesn't help ya spidey.
We know that. Fake bill of sale is meant to transfer ownership. Owner is used correctly there.
Those were hypothetical cards we were using, BigBlue. They're on the first page of this thread towards the bottom.
Currently in Magic there's no way to transfer ownership of cards and keep them in the same playing zone. So someone (CT?) made up some cards to do it and then we were hypothsizing what would happen then.
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