Do you have the GUTS...

[DÛke]

...

Sorry if I'm bringing back the old issue of the tragedy of the previous Tuesday, but this is been bugging me so badly, that I must seek an answer...from the people that seem to know a lot.

Warning: you have to have the guts to read, comprehend, and be able to answer my question...for it IS the kind that can evoke a superfluous commotion. If you're not mature enough to act your age, then please, with all my respect, I ask you to leave this thread.

As you may have heard already from the news or somewhere, the U.S. has been granted permission to use the Pakistani military base by the Pakistani president. The people of Pakistan are not happy, but that's not the issue.

Before asking Pakistan for this "permission," the U.S. first asked Russia…to use its military base in Tajikistan – a neighboring country of Afghanistan. Russia refused to let the U.S. use their bases. The U.S. didn’t say anything. However, when Pakistan first questioned if they should let the U.S. use the Pakistani bases, the U.S. threatened Pakistan. The U.S. declared that it would destroy the nuclear plants in Pakistan, which would bring hell to life to every Pakistani. The U.S. even, poorly, justified that threat by claming that if Pakistan refuses to aid the U.S., then that means they’re “harboring” (or whatever term) the terrorist acts…but TRULY, think of it: why in the world isn’t such a powerful threat made by the U.S. considered as “terrorism”? It is as good as terrorism can get, for Pakistan is an individual country with its own flag. More even, the U.S. didn’t say ANYTHING when Russia refused to let them use THEIR bases…why didn’t they threat them? Why didn’t they react?

From my point of view, the U.S. seems to be threatening the weaker nation, for it knows such weaklings can’t do much. I believe the U.S. didn’t react to Russia’s denial because they know Russia is just as big as the U.S. when it comes to fire-power. I ask you to truly ask yourself: isn’t such a threat an act of terrorism on its on right? How could ANY of you see it happening, and not even say anything about it? See, that’s what I mean when I say: I care about EVERYONE, not just this nation. Not a single nation. Everyone.

The U.S. has successfully violated all the rights of a nation, for let it be known, if the threat has not been made, Pakistan would have not allowed the U.S. to use anything...sadly, the U.S., even in these tragic times, are speaking of the "fights against terrorism" and "natural rights," and right at the same time...the opposite is being enacted on the weak and the helpless. I don't smell the scent of justice at all...

 

[arhar]

First of all, where did you get all the information?

 

[Mr.Gnome]

If all of what you said is true then the US should leave Pakistan alone. We have no right to use another nation if they should choose not to have us and we should not think any less of them because of it, really now, who wants to be dragged into this mess. I feel very sorry for the victims of the attacks but I think that this is definitly the wrong way to handle this and although I am somewhat of a patriot I feel ashamed that my country has done this and do not support it. Do you think that I am acting my age? (Im 13)

 

[MrXarvox]

If that is indeed true.... then yes, the United States IS using methods of terrorism. As with you, DUke, I stand on the side of people in general. I am ashamed, but not surprised (cynics such as myself rarely are) to see my country stooping to that level where they would actually threaten to destroy an entire nation's power sources- NUCLEAR power sources- simply because they do not want to comply with our military occupation. And we all know why the US didn't threaten Russia. A threat like that means everyone suddenly takes sides, and taking sides is what causes world war. As bloodthirsty as the American people are right now, somehow I doubt that they'd like to see a third world war, especially one that they'd probably lose.

But before I jump to any conclusions, I'd like to see your source.

 

[Zadok001]

Full agree with what's been said. Source?

 

[DÛke]

...just tell you all something: I have no intents whatsoever of making up stories, so you guys should believe me EVEN if I don't have a source, but since it matters...

...my source is CNN, on TV.

 

[Spiderman]

I would echo everyone's sentiment so far and despite reserving judgement on the specifics cited, I also agree that the US has pressured Pakistan, probably unfairly.

So if this is from CNN, it should be on their website, no? I don't think someone would ever make stuff up, but there's always misinformation floating around...

 

[Chaos Turtle]

It's just that smart people will generally want to see/read/hear something for themselves, before feeling they have any basis to comment.

This is partly because different people will interpret things differently, and partly because we have varying levels of faith in the sources themselves. After all, haven't you noticed any difference in the way the news is presented in the U.S. as opposed to other countries?

The only thing I've heard on the subject is that Pakistan was told that U.N. sanctions would be lifted more swiftly in exchange for their compliance. I know nothing at all of Tajikistan's refusal to allow the use of their bases.

But then again I haven't exactly been glued to the TV.

 

[DÛke]

...yes, it should be on their website, Spiderman. However, I don't think they would, exactly, tell you about their enforcing Pakistan.

On TV, they said that the Pakistani gorverment did NOT allow the U.S. to use the bases, (and here's the important part), and the U.S. WILL NOT destroy any plants in Pakistan, otherwise, Pakistan will make the U.S. suffer in new ways...something like that...eventually, I guess, the Pakistani President broke down, after seeing how serious the U.S. about it. I'm still very surprised that he's letting the U.S. use their bases.

I heard a lot of stuff from the Arabic channles, but I wont bring them up here until all is also said in an American channel, such as CNN...

 

[Dementia]

Originally posted by DÛke
As you may have heard already from the news or somewhere, the U.S. has been granted permission to use the Pakistani military base by the Pakistani president. The people of Pakistan are not happy, but that's not the issue.

This may not be the case, but I know I heard on one report that the Pakistani people are not that much against the US being there. The report also said that there was some protesting, but also said that there was not as much as could be expected. Just one report, and it was a couple days ago. So might be innaccurate.

Originally posted by DÛke
Before asking Pakistan for this "permission," the U.S. first asked Russia…to use its military base in Tajikistan – a neighboring country of Afghanistan. Russia refused to let the U.S. use their bases. The U.S. didn’t say anything..

There could be lots of reasons for this. Don't jump the gun. Maybe Russia fears revolts from the Tajikistani people if they allow the US use them. I have NO proof that is the case but things are rarely as simplified as this sounds.

Originally posted by DÛke
However, when Pakistan first questioned if they should let the U.S. use the Pakistani bases, the U.S. threatened Pakistan. The U.S. declared that it would destroy the nuclear plants in Pakistan, which would bring hell to life to every Pakistani. The U.S. even, poorly, justified that threat by claming that if Pakistan refuses to aid the U.S., then that means they’re “harboring” (or whatever term) the terrorist acts…but TRULY, think of it: why in the world isn’t such a powerful threat made by the U.S. considered as “terrorism”? It is as good as terrorism can get, for Pakistan is an individual country with its own flag. More even, the U.S. didn’t say ANYTHING when Russia refused to let them use THEIR bases…why didn’t they threat them? Why didn’t they react?..

Well, first off: Pakistan was intially judged as being one of the countries that supported Bin Laden I beleive. NO I would NOT condone it if the US actually bombed those nuclear plants, but I suppose they didn't exactly think they should be gentle with the country that is responsible for some of the stuff Bin Laden has done. As I said before, you see it as Russia being as big as the US and the US picking on Palistine because it's smaller. Pakistan may not have the fire power Russia has but when it comes to nukes you don't need many and Pakistan has enough. I will repeat. Things are prolly not as simple as your post suggests Duke.

Originally posted by DÛke
From my point of view, the U.S. seems to be threatening the weaker nation, for it knows such weaklings can’t do much. I believe the U.S. didn’t react to Russia’s denial because they know Russia is just as big as the U.S. when it comes to fire-power. I ask you to truly ask yourself: isn’t such a threat an act of terrorism on its on right? How could ANY of you see it happening, and not even say anything about it? See, that’s what I mean when I say: I care about EVERYONE, not just this nation. Not a single nation. Everyone.

First off: I didn't SEE any of that. I saw the Palistini president(not sure if that is what he is called) making a speech suggesting that he was using this situation to get a "better deal" with the US when it comes to the sanctions. As far as I can tell they just seem to all be bluffing each other to see who can get the US off their backs in the money department.

Originally posted by DÛke
The U.S. has successfully violated all the rights of a nation, for let it be known, if the threat has not been made, Pakistan would have not allowed the U.S. to use anything...sadly, the U.S., even in these tragic times, are speaking of the "fights against terrorism" and "natural rights," and right at the same time...the opposite is being enacted on the weak and the helpless. I don't smell the scent of justice at all...

So Pakistan is a pure sinless victim in all this? I don't think so. Pakistan is NOT helpless. It could nuke us all the way to hell if it wanted to. They are doing what they should be doing.....playing their cards and trying to get a good deal from the US.

Course this is all just my opinion

I don't care what ya say Duke, you sound biased towards anything America does. I mean.....for christs sake! You REALLY think Pakistan is as innocent as you make it out to be? I am SORRY, but this situation is NOT that one-sided. I don't want to hurt your feelings man. Your my friend(hopefully) but I want a simple yes or no answer from you. Do you TRUELY think that Pakistan has done nothing to warrent that kinda of treatment?

Note: By "treatment" I do NOT mean getting bombed. I mean basically that the US decided to use threats with them instead of requests.

Edit: DANGIT! I just noticed that I said Palistine instead of Pakistan in some places. Just pretend I said Pakistan please

 

[EricBess]

Let's not forget something else. We are talking about a news program here. Media has a way of putting a spin on things to get ratings. They are not in it for 100% altruistic reasons. Sure, they have an stake in getting the story right, but with such fast breaking situations, that doesn't always happen.

I'm not saying this is all media spin. If this was indeed reported, than there is probably some element of truth. However, at this point, there is not enough information to know the whole story.

Also, let's not forget that there are a lot of people involved. It is entirely possible that one ambassador got a little carried away and the media got wind of it. Not saying that this is what happened, just that it is entirely possible based on the information we currently have.

That is the other reason I am interested in a source, Duke. It has nothing to do with not believing. It has everything to do with 1) making sure this wasn't something someone just posted somewhere as a rumor, and 2) making sure I have an opportunity to read the full story myself, preferably from a number of different viewpoints, before making a decision on where I stand on the matter.

 

[DÛke]

...Frankly, Dementia, I don't care if you think I'm biased. It seems to me that you think your nation is perfect. Well, you're wrong buddy. However, I understand everything you have said...

Ericbess, I told my source: CNN TV.

Well, where did I, exactly, say that Pakistan is "innocnet" or "sinless" of all this? Nowhere. The fact that Pakistan is a respected nation should be ENOUGH to resepct its laws, and not go as far as forcing them to do something against their will. The OTHER fact, and this THE more general and important one, is that the U.S. has no prove WHATSOEVER concerning whom, exactly, performed the terrorism, so all this needless commotion and millitary action being taken is completely NEEDLESS - but you know what? The U.S. has other plans right now...other than actually fighting the terrorism. This crime has opened new doors for the U.S. to gain control in the Middle East...and YOU just sit down, call me biased, and watch reality unfold...and then come apologize. Ok? This is bigger than any of you may think. It's much more than about terrorism...this is the United States having the reason to go to the Middle East and start pushing people around...again...

You know what? This will make me sound even MORE biased against the U.S., but I'm going to say it anyway, for it's been bothering the hell out of me. If you do just a little bit of research, you will see that since 50 or so years ago, the U.S. has had its nose put in everything. Every about 10 or so years, the U.S. "participates" in a national war or argument...and this year, it seems, is no different. HOW MUCH does any of you wants to bet that somewhere in the 2010s, the U.S. will have a "problem" with other countries - most likely in the Middle East? Look back at history, for it is repeating itself right before our eyes. One other things, how much do you want to bet the U.S. will even, eventually, attack or mistreat other countries in the Middle East...all because of this "terrorism." Look, you want what I think? I think the U.S. will be commiting some serious crimes in the next few months or years...and DO NOT judge me or take my words on it, for the future is ONLY steps ahead, and hopefully, we all will be alive to watch it unfold, and I assure you...if you just open your eyes a bit, you will see all I have said and even more.

Am I being biased? I promise you, I'm not. Do I sound like I'm being biased? I admit, I do sound like it.

 

[Gerode]

Originally posted by DÛke
...Frankly, Dementia, I don't care if you think I'm biased.

You do seem to care when you see biased US news...

I would still like to see an original source instead of responses to it. You aren't wrong in your interpretation, but you do see things differently.

 

[DÛke]

...hmmm, good point Gerode. However, all the non-redundant news so far have been "bad" news. What do you want me to talk about? How sorry I feel for the lost lives? How, sorry...I am for the amazing policemen and firefighters who lost their lives for others? We've talked about all that. It's not my fault that all the new news are bad. Sorry.

You want to see an original source? Go search CNN.Com or something. I have said what I've seen on TV. Unlike many people, I do not "reinterpert" things to make them fit into my own little mind. That's what some of you have and still are doing. I don't see things "differently," Gerode, I see reality. I believe anyone and everyone reading this has access to the net. Search it...but warning, you WILL NOT like everything that you will hear, for if you think I'm being biased, you have not seen anything AT ALL.

If the U.S. would make a decision that I like, I woud come down here and praise it. If I see something that irritates me, I will come down here, and b*!*h about it. Tell me ONE good action the U.S. has taken so far...come on. An action that's backed by SOMETHING other than just illusions, delusions, and s**t like that. YOU tell ME...and THEN I'll persume on kissing your a*5.

 

[DÛke]

Come ON, now I have a DIRECT quote from Bush himself, from CNN TV, from his address to congress from tonight. I will FINALLY be able to demonstrate my "interpretation" power, and if you can reinterpret this direct quote into something else, then PLEASE let me know. First, I must admit, I sort of admired Bush's speech, until he ruined it completely.

President of the United States:
...countries will have to decide: either they are with us [the United States], or they're with them [the terrorists]...

NOW, I want you to tell me what the HELL that's supposed to mean. Here's my interpretation: since Bush clearly has noted many times that the U.S. will punish all those who "harbor" the terrorists, this means that these countries that will NOT go on the U.S. side will be considered as one of those that HARBOR terrorism, when the case just maybe that they DON'T want ANYTHING to do with this. Isn't what Bush said terrorism itself? How could you say that "you're either with US, or with THEM"? That's not right. I, for on, am NOT with the U.S.'s current actions, so am I a terrorist, or do I harbor, or agree about terrorism?

My main concerns are those smaller countries. They will either have to be with U.S. on this, otherwise, the U.S. will "deal" with them (since they'd be considered as "harbor-ers" otherwise), or refuse to join the U.S., in which these countries will BE considered as harbor-ers, and will be punished...for no reason at all. One more thing, who IS to say who's a harbor-er and who's not? You can't simply have them CHOOSE sides like this - "either with US, or with THEM," that's unjust. What about Russia, which completely disagreed to join the U.S. on this? Why aren't THEY considered as "habor-ers" - or are they too big to push around?

Now, it's your turn to tell me how to "interpret" this quote...please...I even BEG you. This whole tragedy is been storming my every thought. I lack sleep. I lack peace with myself. I WISH I'm wrong, but I will not lie to myself in order to comfort my suffering soul. Saying all I have said is really a pain for me, since I live in and are a happy citizen of the United States.

Yes, I realize and will COMPLETELY understand anyone who thinks I'm being biased. Again, I am not...but I certainly, 307% understand why you may think I am. I'm just trying to make you see things you haven’t seen before...for the sake of it.

 

[Duel]

It's interesting you should mention that......

Terrorism, I think, has to be random. Israel bulldozing houses of suicide bombers, where there families still live, is not terrorism, because it's a given response. There's a noted cause. Do this, and we do that. It's bully tactics.

That's what Bush is using. Yep, he's saying that unless you help us, we declare war on you, more or less. Pretty harsh words. He pushes around anyone who he can, and he will continue to do that until he is stopped. I just hope when he's stopped, the radiation won't get to the west coast.....

Someone recently referred to him as "the American Hitler"
The title is completely unjustified, but.......
Operation Infinite Justice?
A Crusade against all evil?
Homeland Defense?
I can see a shape forming on the horizon that I'm not fond of...

 

[MrXarvox]

Operation Infinite Justice.
Take off every "zig".




Isn't the name just a bit... cheesy?

 

[Spiderman]

Isn't Tajikistan a separate country from Russia now?

I also heard that remark and do think that's it's pretty strong... whether it's rhetoric or not, we'll see.

They've changed the name of the operation from "Infinite Justice"... apparently most religious people associate that phrase with God solely dealing out justice and I guess in that context it makes the US to be like God(?) Something like that...

 

[MrXarvox]

well drag nab it. Now they've gone and made it less reminiscent of All Your Base!

 

[DÛke]

...so now what? I haven't heard much reaction to my statements...I want to know what you guys think about my interpretation of Bush's quote. Seriously, do you think I'm being biased - or am I just adjusting what he's saying to my personal need? I want to know what you think. Spiderman? Ericbess? Dementia? Gerode?

The U.S. is ready to attack anyone who harbors the terrorists...it's read to kill innocent people...ALL based on nothing. They're in Afgan, and they have no prove. They want Bin Ladin - a criminal indeed - but may, in fact, have nothing to do with this. They're are about to blame Iraq for it too, and they haven't gotten a single piece of leading information that points at Iraq, or, any nation. They're going to take over the Middle East...

...I'm going to try to handle this situation very calmly, for I know should a war break loose in the Middle East, more of my relatives and friends will die...

...but that's not the case...

...the case is, when people get upset over there, and start planning to kill the American innocent life, you should, by all means understand them...for the U.S., right now, is on the road of destroying more innocent lives than can be forseen...

...go ahead, kill all that you may...but PLEASE, do not be enraged when it happens to the U.S., it's fair, and when it happens again, the U.S. just may, in fact, deserve it.

I don't see any investigations with common sense...I still see actions backed by vengence, and greed even...I don't see natural rights...I see a massacre...I don't see anything of peace in the future. I see the U.S. f^<|{ing everyone, and I see the U.S. getting f^<|{ed, again...

...is this what you guys want - is that "justice"? You lost your damn virginity already...