Creature-less Suicide

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DÛke

Guest
This is the most incredible deck I have built in a long, long time. My god, I can’t believe how many hours of work I put into it in order to shape it up, and not to mention, make it T2 legal.

This deck is awesome: it describes me, it’s aggressive, and it beats Green (of course, that’s not always the best, but from me, beating Green means so much, no offense to any Elves here or anything.)

Let’s look at the deck list first:

7 Creature Cards:
4 Thrashing Wumpus
3 Highway Robber

18 Control Cards:
4 Massacre
4 Addle
4 Rain of Tears
3 Unmask
3 Despoil

11 Beautiful Cards:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Desperate Research
3 Rhystic Syphon

24 Handy Little Mana Sources:
2 Rath’s Edge
22 Swamp

And now, Angels, Elves, Goblins, Vampires, and Illusions, the explanation of the deck:

The 4 Thrashing Wumpus provides overkill. These will be very hot creatures, not that they aren’t already. The slowing down of the environment simply makes this bad boy much better. Let me put it this way, if a 5 casting cost card is playable in an Urza environment, a slow environment like this will take this thing like it was broken or something.

The 3 Highway Robber is more than great. It gives Red decks something to deal with, and it’s great food for an angry Blastoderm. It’s in the deck one reason: to provide a chump blocker while giving me some life, and hurting my opponent’s feelings (life total actually).

I also have 4 Rain of Tears and 3 Despoil. They ruin the opponent more than you think. Now a day, the goodies cost at least 4 or 5 mana to cast, meaning that Rain of Tears and Despoil could slow the opponent a bit; this “bit” is all I need to shatter my enemy. The Despoil is even better than it looks; sure, the loss of 2 life is not much, but think about it, between the Highway Robbers, the Thrashing Wumpus, and the Rhystic Syphon, wouldn’t that be distressing by itself! Goodness lord! Plus, there aren’t any great discard cards to fill in the spot, so land removal becomes handy, and trust me, I never knew this, but land destruction combined with discard is really nauseating, for your opponent that is.

Unmask and Addle are simply the best discard spells I’ve seen since Duress. Unmask’s alternative playing cost is handy, and I could destroy a land, and still Unmask my opponent. Addle is simply amazing, I don’t see any big draw back.

Now, for the ‘Beautiful Cards”. I call them “beautiful” because they are. Dark Ritual is, well, do I need to explain? Desperate Research is a really, really good search card for Black. It’s better than Rhystic Tutor even. Here’s an “episode”: I’m at second turn, and I need a Rain of Tears or a Dark Ritual for next turn, well, what do I do? Desperate Research. Play the Research, tear throughout the top 7 cards of your library, and get what you want. The good part is that if you don’ t get what you want, the chances are that the next 2 or 3 cards contain what you want are very great. In another word, you either get what you want, or you’re 7 cards closer to it, which is a handy tool by itself (in my foreign opinion anyway). Now, one might suggest that Rhystic Tutor would fit “better” in this deck; well, what I would say is that “sure, it might fit better”; that’s all I would say. I simply like being “desperate” (read my signature). I also like being of the suicidal type. Desperate Research, either way, is less fragile than the Rhystic Tutor, and when I want to get something out of my deck, I really must get it, even if I have to be at least 7 cards closer to it, but I must get it, the sooner the better. Rhystic Tutor is not flexible. You either get what you want, or get nothing.

Rhystic Syphon is great in this deck, though I still wish I could replace it with the more flexible Drain Life, or the less fragile Soul Feast. Though, Rhystic Syphon is good enough, especially in a deck with minor Land denial like this one.

I chose 24 Lands (duh!), 22 of them being the nice ol’Swamps, and the other 2 are the underrated Rath’s Edge. Why Rath’s Edge? Well, let me put it this way: Gliders, Red, and (the less popular), Spell Shapers.

There. What do you think? Any cards I missed? The deck is great in my opinion. Need your opinion though.

"I forgot to contaminate this thread with similes...shoot!"
 
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Mikeymike

Guest
I can tell how much you love this deck, that is a good thing of course.

I agree, Desperate Research gets an undeserved bad rap. Its amazing how someone can, how do you say, "poop" on a card they've never played with before. My question is, how do the DRs compare to Vampiric Tutor? If you're like me and don't own any, then probably pretty good I guess.

However, looking at your deck I think it might be a better fit. The loss of life is negligible considering you have 7 life gain sources (of course the Wumpus doesn't help that much), and I love being able to include single copies of cards into decks (Perish, Ascendent Evincar, and other tricks) to be able to grab them at will.

Yawgmoth's Agenda would be fun in here and could work very well. The one spell per turn restriction only hurts your Dark Rituals, but You probably won't be playing it early game anyway. Reusable Syphons, Rain of tears, Massacres and the like would be an ugly ability. But I would really only play this w/ Vampiric Tutor (1 copy, and Vamp is an instant so the Agenda won't hurt it)

Last thing, have you tried Stupor in here?

The deck looks solid though, good luck with it. When I figure out Apprentice I'll give it a shot.
 
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DÛke

Guest
I haven’t had the change to try Stupors, since I don’t have them in the first place. The deck is pretty solid though, and I'm very satisfied with its current removal base, since it's non-targeting.

Desperate Research isn’t as good as Vampiric Tutor, sadly. One thing for sure though, on a couple of occasions, I managed to pull 2 copies of the named card, which is totally superior to what a single Vampiric Tutor, can do. Most of the time, the Research will get you what you want, the rest, it will just help you get “closer” to what you want. It’s a pretty fair card, in my opinion.

I don’t have a Vampiric Tutor, nor am I willing to pay huge amounts of money to get them. I’m very satisfied with the Desperate Researches; they’re my best friends in decks where Tutors are needed.

Yawgmoth’s Agenda would be pretty powerful in this deck indeed. I’m working on getting 2 for this deck. One thing I hate about the Agenda, though, is that it could get pretty restrictive; therefore, away of sacrificing it is very needed, which leads into a whole rebuilding of the deck and all; just trouble.

Anyone else want to have a look? I’m very desperate!
 
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Zero

Guest
7 Creature Cards:
4 Thrashing Wumpus
3 Highway Robber

19 Control Cards:
4 Massacre
4 Addle
4 Stupors
2 Rain of Tears
4 Despoil
1 Yawgmoth’s Agenda

9 Beautiful Cards:
4 Dark Ritual
1 Desperate Research
2 Rhystic Syphon
2 Vampiric Tutors

24 Handy Little Mana Sources:
2 Rath’s Edge
22 Swamp
 
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DÛke

Guest
You didn't offer any advice towards you changes though. For example, you didn't tell me why you prefer 4 Despoils to the Rain of Tears. I mostly agree with you about the Stupors and the Vampiric Tutors. The Yawgmoth's Agenda is good too, I guess.

Why less Rain of Tears for more Despoils?
 
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Zero

Guest
Sorry...there were so many different IMs on my window, I posted it without relizing!

Well then, to the deck!

More Despoils vs. Rain of Tears.

I wanted to make the deck less reliant on Dark Ritual, so The agenda could be used to its fullest ( I wanted to include two in the decklist). Also, I wanted to put in some artifact mana acc (Those 6th diamonds?) that would cheapen the despoil.


Also, the stupors I just like better than addle. I Hate unmask but I know your fond of it duck, so go ahead and add a few pardner! I think there was too much search in the original deck, and will just 4 Tutors would be the best, thats boring!

I need...sleep!
 
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DÛke

Guest
Go to sleep than Dawn! :)

As for your deck, I'll have to test it before seeing if it's better, or worse. I never played Yawgmoth’s Agenda, so I need to "feel" it before making any judgments.

Thanks for the greet input Dawn.
I need more opinions!
 
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Neil Rigby

Guest
I think the main thing that I would change about the deck is the complete lack of realistic removal, sorry but massacre is not quite enough, Adding some snuff out/vendetta would probably be a good idea. I don't think this deck would benefit greatly from adding an Agenda but would instead prefer some form of artifact card drawing, due to the fact that all it's spells are sorceries so the Agenda set back hurts quite a lot, If you added more instant spells (like snuff out, vampiric tutor) this would not be as bad. That all sounds very contradictory, but I can't be bothered retyping it so I will just tell you the basic point, some Instants=GOOD, no Instants=BAD. Like Zero did I would just change a couple of cards from your original deck list as the basics seem set. 4 Wumpus+3 Robber ((7)creatures) - 3 Snuff out+1 Massacre+1 Tsabo's Decree ((5)removal)(12) - 4 Addle+2 Stupor ((6)discard)(18) - 4 Rain of tears+3 Despoil ((7)land destruction)(25) - 1 Agenda+3 Rhystic Syphon+2 Vampiric Tutor+1 Desperate Reseach+1 Tsabo's Web ((8)beautiful spells)(33) - 4 Dark Ritual ((4)Mana Source)(37) - 4 Peat Bog+1 Raths Edge+1 Dust Bowl+19 Swamp ((26)Lands)(61).
I don't know how easy it will be for you to get hold of the cards not listed in your original decklist and also the Tsabo's Decree was just a fun card that I thought would make a good alternative to Massacre as none targeted creature removal (and its instant).
The other changes are mainly little things like adding Peat Bogs because you can get them back later on with the Agenda and changing a Rath's Edge for a Dust Bowl so killing non basic land early on doesn't have to cost you a card in hand, and again land used in this way can be returned later with the Agenda.
In the end, this is as usual, only my opinion and by no means how the deck should end up looking.
Hope my input is of some use, have fun.
Christ all my post's are long (no wonder i've only done 17):D
 
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Zero

Guest
I want to show you the decklist I wanted to post last night!


Creatures (7)
4 Thrashing Wumpus
3 Highway Robber (Perhaps Plague Spitter instead?)

Discard (8)
4 Stupors
2 Addle
2 Hypnotic Cloud

Creature Kill (4)
2 Massacre
2 Forced March

Land Destruction (6)
4 Despoil
2 Rain of Tears

Search (5) (Alot of change can go here do to $)
1 Desperate Research
2 Rhystic Syphon
2 Vampiric Tutors

Mana Acceleration (8)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Charcoal Diamond

Utility (2)
2 Yawgmoth’s Agenda

2 Rath’s Edge
22 Swamp

There ya'll are! In the original decklist, I really didint think 5 search cards were needed (Or any!. But, I didnt want to change the deck so much, so I molded it towards a more "search able" deck (With alot less of one card). Here is a good deck minus the search:

Creatures (7)
4 Thrashing Wumpus
3 Plague Spitter

Discard (9)
4 Stupors
3 Addle
2 Hypnotic Cloud

Creature Kill (5)
2 Snuff Out
3 Forced March

Land Destruction (8)
4 Despoil
4 Rain of Tears

Mana Acceleration (8)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Charcoal Diamond

Utility (2)
2 Yawgmoth’s Agenda

1 Rath’s Edge
1 Dust Bowl
19 Swamp


But as MonoBlack control always has been, this deck is very weak to enchantments and artifacts. Hopefully, you'll be able to strip away there hand and creatures long enough to beat them down with Despoil damage, and Wumpus/Spitter.


What do you think duke?





[Edited by Zero on 11-11-00 at 01:40 PM]
 
Z

Zero

Guest
Mr. Neil Rigby has some very valid ideas about the agenda! Consider them carefully Obi Duke Kenobi...

Now I need food...
 
D

DÛke

Guest
Neil, you offer this much of great advises, and you don't post much! Why NOT! We need people like you here! Great job!

Now, I agree that this deck is kind of on the "sorcery" card, but how can I help it? Snuff-Outs and/or Vendettas are really great cards, but I don't understand why people have no fear playing them; I mean, against Black creatures, Snuff-Out/Vendetta is totally useless. Totally. How could I make up for this disadvantage? I like the idea of using Tsabo’s Decree; it has become yet another one of my favorite cards. Sadly, only one copy could be played due to the overly high casting cost.

Dawn (Zero), I will talk about this deck list of yours:

Creatures (7)
4 Thrashing Wumpus
3 Plague Spitter

Discard (9)
4 Stupors
3 Addle
2 Hypnotic Cloud

Creature Kill (5)
2 Snuff Out
3 Forced March

Land Destruction (8)
4 Despoil
4 Rain of Tears

Mana Acceleration (8)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Charcoal Diamond

Utility (2)
2 Yawgmoth’s Agenda

1 Rath’s Edge
1 Dust Bowl
19 Swamp

Forced March is a great card, though requires a lot of mana. I like it, so I'll add 2 or 3. You people are opening my eyes into cards I never considered; ya'll so great!

I don't like the new discard base:
4 Stupors
3 Addle
2 Hypnotic Cloud

Stupors are cool with me, but the Hypnotic Clouds? What for? I might add 1, for later in the game, but 2? I don't want it that early. What do you think of adding 2 Unmasks instead? If I add Unmask, I could add Snuff-Out/Vendetta, since I would able to use them (Snuff-/Vendetta) to power up Unmask's ACC. Would that be cool?

The Plague Spitters are fine, but they don't "hold" back the Blastoderms much (the Robbers give me life, at least); however, they do hold back all those annoying 1/1s. I fear it's ability; it hurts me too; and with Thrashing Wumpus, and Vampiric Tutor, it's a bit more pain a suicide person could take :). I don't know, what does anyone else think of Plague Spitter? Should I replace the Highway Robbers with the Plague Spitters?

Now, for the mana sources: My big question is, would it hurt much if I take out 1 Charcoal Diamond to add yet another Massacre/Unmask/Snuff-Out?

I wish I could afford the Vampiric Tutors. I'm always desperate, and a Desperate Research is the only card I could afford for now. It's not that bad anyway. You should try it sometimes; really more powerful than one might think.

As for Yawgmoth's Agenda. What do I do I want the Yawgmoth's Agenda out of play after it's "shackling" me for a while?

Great advice. However, these advice arise questions. I want them answered, anyone. If you don't mind that is.
 
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Zero

Guest
Well about the discard base, if you dont like it lets change it!

Discard (9)
4 Stupors
4 Addle
1 Hypnotic Cloud

Or, something better...

Discard (9)
4 Stupors
3 Addle
2 Unmask


I think it would hurt if you took out a charcoal diamond, but you can prob risk it. Is it really needed though? Trust me, 3 Forced march and 2 Snuff outs are enough to take of everyhintg (espically with all this wumpus stuff you got)

And about agenda, your only gonna cast it late in the game, so why would one spell per tuyrn bother you? Play test it and see babe.
 
D

DÛke

Guest
Don't call me babe! J/K :)

4 Stupors, 3 Addles, and 2 Unmasks are cool, in my opinion. Why don't you like Unmask Dawn? Don't make me write my Unmask speech, please. The 4 Stupors are really amazing; they give the deck a very mean disruptive power. Addle and Unmask should take care of what's little left of opponent's hand.

Aren't 3 Forced March a bit overkill? Oh well.
Still, I fear having an un-played Snuff-Out due to not having legal targets.

No one told me if Plague Spitter should come over the Highway Robber. Dit moi!

Dawn, your deck list has changed my deck so much! No search cards, and no Rhystic Syphons! I'll have to test and see what's going on. Right now, here are the changes I've made to the deck by everyone's influence:

4 Thrashing Wumpus
3 Plague Spitter (Should these be 3 Highway Robbers?)

4 Dark Ritual
2 Charcoal Diamond

2 Forced March
2 Snuff Out

1 Rhystic Syphon
2 Twilight's Call

4 Rain of Tears
4 Stupor
3 Addle
3 Despoil
2 Unmask

1 Dust Bowl
1 Rath's Edge
22 Lands

There. That's what happened to the deck after the many great advices I've gotten.
It really did go throughout a lot of changes. No search cards any more, but instead, 2 Twilight’s Call.
Also, Plague Spitter took the place of the Highway Robber (I’m still too whimsical about this decision).
Anything else I need to know? This deck should shatter creature decks with a mere thought.

Thanks to all whom replied.
 
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Gizmo

Guest
Forced March is really solid, IMHO. I think it`s great.


This is looking really good now, just a couple of points. Mainly, are we sure we want Rituals? They often go into a black deck on spec, without anybody thinking about them too much. I think that in here they are`nt necessary. Without Chilling Apparition you don`t particularly need to see anything early and although they help to get a big card out early, they are far less efficient than Diamonds in the long run.

Apparently Plague Spitter is good, I have been told. I remain unconvinced. I think a creature base of 4 Abyssal Spectre and 3 Wumpus is good, and I might even add a couple of Avatars or Evincars on top just be sure (the Ascendent Evincar is a beating).

Now it actualyl seems weak against creatures. I think you need some Terrors/Vendettas/Vicious Hungers in here - Something. You have too much disruption and that is bad. Generally LD and Discard don`t mix. You blow up land, thus effectively killing all their expensive spells, and then you waste discard cards to kill them again. I think I`d drop the LD to a minimal amount (say 3 Despoil) and run a little more early removal.

2 Ascendent Evincar
3 Wumpus
4 Abyssal Spectre

4 Charcoal Diamond
1 Jayemdae Tome/Mercadian Atlas

3 Terror
2 Snuff Out
3 Forced March

2 Soul Burn
1 Rhystic Syphon

3 Addle
4 Stupor
3 Coercion
3 Despoil

1 Dust Bowl
2 Subterranean Hangar (OMG! Can`t believe I`m suggesting this)
20 Swamp


Be nice to go into U or R for some nice Golds though...
 
D

DÛke

Guest
...very nicely done; though I still like Zero's, and my origianl version better (hey, it's more "original").

Ascendent Evincar is a bad card in my opinion, and even more so in this deck. The only thing good about it is that it keeps non-Black, 1 toughness creatures out of play; does that really worth 6 mana? Being 3/3 isn't a big deal, not really.
I think I'll stay away from the Evincar for now.

I have never, and will never, allow Terror in my Black decks for one reason: the environment always contains something much more worthy. Snuff-Out and Vendetta do a better job a destroying creatures.

However, you advising me to add Snuff-Outs, that I could understand.

The Dark Rituals are even more handy in the deck now, why should the be removed? They power-up a first turn Plauge Spitter/Stupor, or make a Soul Burn/Thrashing Wumpus a bit more effective. It's really vital, even in the deck you made, in which you included the 3 Coercions, which benifts greatly from Dark Ritual.

Here's the latest version (which is LD-less now):

4 Thrashing Wumpur
3 Plauge Spitter
1 Highway Robber

4 Dark Ritual
3 Charcoal Diamond

4 Stupor
3 Addle
1 Unmask
1 Hypnotic Cloud

4 Snuff-Out
4 Massacre
2 Forced March
1 Soul Burn

22 Swamp
1 Rath's Edge
1 Subterranean Hangar

Hypnotic Cloud is really not that bad. You play it if you get early, and play it with a Kicker when you get it late. Subterranean Hangar is great too: making the Thrashing Wumpus, Soul Burn, and Forced March just a bit more effective late game.

I love the Highway Robber, so I have to add 1. Did I mention he scares the heck out of Red decks (just a bit)?

Plauge Spitter is in there because everyone told me to add it. I'll test it, and see what I think.

You people are the best. Look what you've done to my deck. I'm thankful! :)
 
D

Darsh

Guest
Hmm. I can only see one problem.

"When Plague Spitter goes into a graveyard, deal 1 damage to each creature and player."

If you have a Spitter and a Wumpas out you will not be able to kill */2's, at least not without taking out all of your creatures with it. And it doesn't work good when dealing with Massacre either.
 
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DÛke

Guest
You know, I never knew what kind of binoculars you carry with you, because you sure have great ones! You're the only one who probably noticed that "disadvantage" to point it out! Thanks!

All I have to say to everyone is that: "I told you I was better off with the 3 Highway Robbers". :D
 
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Darsh

Guest
Girl, just back off of me!;)
Anyway the Highway Robbers were good because of the 4 point life swing, very handy with the Wumpas.
 
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