Discussion in 'Rules Questions' started by timmy, May 19, 2003.

  1. timmy The Lord of Dance

    ok my opponent has 1 card in his library
    he cast brainstorm and claims he doesn't lose because it doesn't check until after the resolution and at that time he has 2 cards in his library
    my question is does he lose because he can't draw any cards
    or is he right about not losing because he has cards in his library at the end of the resolution
  2. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I think he's wrong and he loses:

  3. train The Wildcard!!!...

    That's right Spidey...

    The state based effect being discussed doesn't care if cards are in the library after resolution. It just sees that the player had to draw 3 cards, and there were less than that in the library. So the loss condition still applies.;)
  4. EricBess Active Member

    I guess it's been requested that a level 3 judge respond to this... :D

    Draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library in any order.

    The applicable rules:

    420.3. Whenever a player would get priority to play a spell or ability (see rule 408, “Timing of Spells and Abilities”), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based effects. All applicable effects resolve as a single event, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based effects have been generated, triggered abilities go on the stack, then the appropriate player gets priority. This check is also made during the cleanup step (see rule 314); if any of the listed conditions apply, the active player receives priority.

    420.5. The state-based effects are as follows:

    420.5g A player who was required to draw more cards than were in his or her library loses the game.

    For reference:

    420.5a A player with 0 life or less loses the game.

    So, I am at 3 life and I cast Soul Feast, which gets Misdirected so I end up targetting myself. I lose 4 life, so I'm at 0 (-1), then I gain 4 life, so I'm at 3. But I was at 0 life, so do I lose the game?

    Soul Feast
    Target player loses 4 life and you gain 4 life.

    Well, according to 420.3, I don't check state-based effects mid resolution. According to 420.5a, "A player with 0 life or less loses the game." Well, when I check that, I don't have 0 life or less, so I guess I'm okay.

    Should be the same for Brainstorm, right? At least, I'm guessing that this is the train of thought that timmy's opponent (the L2 judge) is using. However, go back and read 420.5g a bit more carefully... "A player who was required to draw more cards than were in his or her library loses the game."

    If 420.5a were worded, "A player who was or is at 0 life or less loses the game", then Soul Feast would have killed me. But that's not how it is worded. 420.5g is worded that way, so even though it is not checking mid resolution, I was required to draw mid resolution and was unable to, so I lose the game. If you stop and think about it, anything that causes me to draw uses the stack and resolves as an effect, so if it weren't worded that way, then decking an opponent wouldn't even be a win condition anyway.

    Bottom line is that timmy's opponent is not correct. He will lose due to 420.5g.
  5. Nightstalkers Creature — Nightstalker

    he lost the game didn't he? Afterwards i mean.
  6. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Not necessarily. If they had played Brainstorm as above and let him resolve it and not lose from the draw, that one card might have been the game-winner for the Brainstorm player...
  7. CrazyMongrel New Member

    no, he doesn't lose, since the effect is checked only after the resolution of the whole spell...check 420.4
  8. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    We have a level 3 judge saying he will lose to 420.5g. Why would he lose to 420.4?
  9. EricBess Active Member

    Okay...This has been closed for some time and CrazyMongrel comes along and states that the L3 judge is wrong with nothing to back it up other than throwing out a rule number with no text. Funny thing is, if you read my initial reply, you will see that I already covered that IN DETAIL.

    (Sorry about the attitude, I'm in a venting mood today :D)

    420.4. Unlike triggered abilities, state-based effects pay no attention to what happens during the resolution of a spell or ability.

    That's all well and good, Crazy, and I agree with the fact that it is indeed relevant. The player does not lose mid resolution of Brainstorm. Everyone agree? Good, let's move on to other relevant matters.

    When Brainstorm finishes resolving, we check the state based effects. One in particular looks interesting:

    420.5g A player who was required to draw more cards than were in his or her library loses the game.

    Note that ALL of the other state-based effects are worded in present tense. A player who is at 0 life (paraphrased for emphasis), etc. But we aren't asking that, we are asking the following:

    WAS a player required to draw more cards than were in his or her library? At any time during the entire game thus far?

    The answer is yes and therefore, the player loses. QED, thanks for playing :D
  10. train The Wildcard!!!...

    But I wasn't done playing yet...:( ;)
  11. Reverend Love New Member offense Eric but all my opponent would have to do is threaten to call you over and I'd concede. I'd imagine it's quite similiar to a stern lecture by a parent.
  12. EricBess Active Member

    LOL - Like I said, I was in a venting mood. Normally, I'm quite civil. :D
  13. train The Wildcard!!!...

    that's the way it should be...

    Judges striking fear into the opponent that questions the playing, or action being taken...

    "Rune, can I use your taser for a second? The feature match is calling for a ruling..."
  14. Reverend Love New Member

    Not bad considering I only had MSPaint.

    Attached Files:

  15. EricBess Active Member

    LOL - Message to Nightstalkers - I guess now you have to find me something that looks sort of like that for your RPG.

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