Blastoderm can be enchanted...

Discussion in 'Rules Questions' started by jcredberry, Dec 21, 2000.

  1. Hawaiian mage CPA symbiod

    Correct me if I'm wrong, and I probably am, but doesn't useing a Replenish alow you to target untargetable ceatures with enchantments? I forgot why, but I remember hereing that...
  2. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good

    That's right, HM. As I said before, enchantments are only targetted if you PLAY them. If they come into play, get moved, etc, they aren't _played_, so they aren't targetted.
  3. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    Then can you pariah a pro-white creature using this method?
  4. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    No.

    Enchantment-moving effects (both within play and into play from elsewhere) implicity cannot be put on an illegal enchantee.

    Illegal enchantees being: a creature that says "Can't be enchanted" or has protection from a color of the enchantment, or protection from enchantments, etc.
  5. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good

    (I just checked that, CT is correct.)

    That's kinda silly! :) I mean, it would make more sense to allow the creature to be the new target of a moved enchantment, since by the rules of Protection: ~foo~, ~foo~ enchantments would fall off as a state based effect. That would keep the rules more consistant, and the effect would be mostly the same, I believe.
  6. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    nah, it'd allow some abusive combos, though, not many. Come to think of it, none. You're right, wizards is stoopid not to let it do that.
  7. Namielus Phrexian Plaguelord

    just wait four turns, that will fix your problem with ol'blasto, if that didn't fix it I don't think it matters.

    So we learned;
    Ol' blasto dies too fast to worry...

    You CAN'T cast an enchantment on blasto.

    Untargetable creatures CAN be enchanted, via rector.

    Protection from colors is CONSTANT so any color enchantment that hits a creature doesn't stick or is peeled off.

    CT knows his magic stuff and is right.

    Any other questions?

    (and for next time post easier to unstand solutions)
  8. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    I agree with you 100% Zadok.

    In fact, my initial response was to answer exactly as you had suggested... but I let the Force flow through me, and remembered that whole brouhaha on MTG-L about the Re-Animated White Knight :rolleyes:.
  9. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    Yeah. Hey, did they ever decide if it reached play, or if it never made it, or if it reached play and then died?
  10. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    Animate Dead got errata, as far as I know.

    It comes into play and then dies.

    I could be wrong; I've tried very hard not to think about it. :p
  11. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    This statement is false


    I just love how magic works sometimes......
    Okay, so does the white knight being recurred activate pandemonium?
  12. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    Of course it does.
  13. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    So it actually reaches play? At what point to state-based effects check and see that animate dead is on the knight? Could I, for example, tap it with kyren negotiations?
  14. Namielus Phrexian Plaguelord

    The key to this is;

    1st, 2nd, 3rd -- "Any creature in either player's graveyard comes into play on your side with -1 to its original power. If this enchantment is removed, or at end of game, target creature is returned to its owner's graveyard. Target creature may be killed as normal."

    4th Edition -- "If Animate Dead is removed, bury the creature in its owner's graveyard."

    5th Edition -- "If Animate Dead leaves play, bury the creature."

    but then again I don't think you really care about the real card text, looking up at the card rulings I found this:

    "The bringing of the creature into play and then putting Animate Dead on it is all done as one triggered ability."

    So if the target is invald it fisses out. So creature is dead if animate dead can't sit on it.
  15. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    State-based effects are always checked whenever a player would get priority.

    In the case of the Animated White Knight, once the Animate Dead is finished resolving its triggers, then whoever played it (normally) would get priority. Right before you can do anything, state-based effects are checked for, and the Animate Dead will notice that it's on an illegal enchantee, and go away, taking the White Knight with it.

    The problem, by the way, was in determining whether the Whit Knight could actually be enchanted in the first place. If not (which would be consistent with other rules) then the Animate Dead dies without ever actually enchanting the Knight, meaning you'd get the Knight back with no drawback.

    Of course this is not the case; the White Knight is temporarily enchanted, and dies when the Animate Dead is buried.

    I think :p
  16. Namielus Phrexian Plaguelord

    Full 5th Edition wording 'Animate Dead'

    'When you play Animate Dead, choose target creature card in any graveyard. When Animate Dead comes into play, put that creature into play and Animate Dead becomes a creature enchantment that targets the creature. Enchanted creature gets -1/-0. If Animate Dead leaves play, bury the creature.'

    In the graveyard pro-black isn't an issue... so corpse dance works just fine or you should be able to rapid decay it also.

    So white knight is a valid target to take from the graveyard and stick into play.

    So animate dead starts to trigger

    "The bringing of the creature into play and then putting Animate Dead on it is all done as one triggered ability."

    We make sure we use this.

    "When Animate Dead comes into play, put that creature into play and Animate Dead becomes a creature enchantment that targets the creature."

    Animate Dead enters play.
    White Knight enters play AND Animate Dead is place on it.
    Invalid Target.
    Animate Dead fizzules AND White Knight entering play fizzules.
    Both end up in the graveyard, Animate Dead before White Knight

    So it looks like, no, the enchantment checks for targets and that doesn't work, and as stated above it is 1 single triggered ability. So all of the effects don't happen.

    The Knight enters play, and leaves shortly thereafter, almost the oppisate of flicker...

    Here is a dumb idea, Instantly dissappering creatures with come into play effects...
  17. Thallid Ice Cream Man 21sT CeNTuRy sChIZoId MaN

    Iridescent Drake (pre-errata) + False Demise + Absolute Grace + Sleight of Mind (to turn the grace to blue) + Pandemonium = lots of damage ;)
  18. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    you need a golbin bombardment. that woudl be easy. WOuld that be infinite?

    Iridescent drake, false demise, goblin bombardment. Combo?
    [me] grins[/me]
  19. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good

    No, the Drake was errataed like the rest of the abusive CIP effects. :)
  20. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    Forgive me for bringing this up again... :p

    Namielus, it's not as cut-and dried as all that, unfortunately.
    The problem lies in the 6th-edition definition of protection, which includes "Can't be enchanted by {quality} enchantments."

    A lot of confusion was over whether the Animate Dead, when it gets to the part about "becomes an enchant creature enchanting the creature," was actually able to enchant the creature in the first place.

    See, in any other case (like the ones discussed earlier in this thread) it can't even be put on the White Knight. What's wacky about that situation is, when Animate Dead is then buried since it's not enchanting anything, it's triggered ability tells you to destroy the enchanted creature. Well, there isn't one, so many postulated that the White Knight would remain in play.

    This is one of the very few special-case rulings still around, since wording Animate Dead in such a way that it does what it's supposed to has (apparently) proven too cumbersome a job for R&D.

    Instead, they invoke the "Golden Rule" and say the Animate Dead does in fact enchant the White Knight before a state-based effect kills it.

    Blah-blah-blah...

    Anyway, that's what the problem was, and now it's not a problem anymore... I almost regret bringing it up in the first place...

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