Asking for Questions...

Discussion in 'Rules Questions' started by train, Jul 23, 2003.

  1. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Okay guys - I'm doing it... I'm going to test for Level 1 judgeship on Aug. 9th...

    So I'm filling my head with more and more rules knowledge...

    I've been reading through Saturday schools, Ransac rules questions, and other rules boards testing my stuff... and if any of you have any questions you know of that might have been tricky in the past(not from the certification test(I'm not looking to cheat), just in general...) please post them here...

    Thanks!

    train.
  2. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Good luck!
  3. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Thanks Spidey - I'm just hoping for some tricky questions to come up for practice!

    Soon I'll be certified!...

    "What do you mean you're all quitting Magic?!!!...":p
  4. rkoelsch Angel Boy

    Well if they let you be a judge, what does that say for the state of the game? ;)
  5. Nightstalkers Creature — Nightstalker

    Don't turn into one of them guys who acts like hims got a stick up their butt.
  6. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Don't worry - I won't...

    But any Blue player asking me a Rules question will have a stick up theirs shortly!...:p
  7. Killer Joe Active Member

    If my opponent casts his 'game-winning' card against me and I respond with a Counterspell, do I get to do the happy dance?

    I do have a simple question:
    My opponent plays Dark Baninshing targeting my Exalted Angel and I respond with a cycle card to activate my Astral Slide targeting my Angel. He waits for my cycle card and the Astral Slide to resolve and then he casts Disenchant on my A-Slide. Do I get my Angel back?
  8. Nightstalkers Creature — Nightstalker

    I'll be happy to parry by circumsizing ya a few inches too short... :p
  9. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Killer Joe - yes...

    Once the creature is removed by the slide, the effect doesn't leave with the slide - if it is destroyed, you lose control of it, it's returned to your hand, or removed from the game...

    The ability is... we'll say "stamped" onto the card until the "At end of turn" abilities are placed on the stack and resolve...

    You could also say the card "remembers" to come back...

    But you do get the Angel back...;)

    Thanks for the question!...

    train.:D
  10. Nightstalkers Creature — Nightstalker

    Can I use a proxy in a deck, in place of a real card I have?

    Say I have a mint contition Alpha Black Lotus, signed by both the Christopher Rush, and Richard Garfield. Could I use a proxy to represent it in my deck even though I have the physical card with me?
  11. Lotus Mox New Member

    Me and my opponent have each 4 untapped Howling Mines, 4 Chains of Mephistopheles and 4 Underworld Dreams in play and 7 cards in hand, what happens in my opponent's draw step? :cool:
  12. train The Wildcard!!!...

    To narrow this down a little, since it's the opponent's draw step, then their underworlds will not trigger...

    Howling Mine
    At the beginning of each player's draw step, if Howling Mine is untapped, that player draws a card.

    Chains of Mephistopheles
    If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in a draw step, that player discards a card from his or her hand instead. If the player discards a card, he or she draws a card. If the player doesn't discard a card, he or she puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.

    Underworld Dreams
    Whenever an opponent draws a card, Underworld Dreams deals 1 damage to him or her.

    Now - According to 8th edition rules, before the howling mines are placed on the stack, the draw occurs and does not use the stack. This triggers the 4 dreams which go on the stack the next time your opponent gains priority...
    Berfore priority is issued the "At the beginning..." from the 8 mines trigger and go onto the stack... but are modified by the chains to read: "At the beginning of each player's draw step, if Howling mine is untapped, that player discards a card from his or her hand instead. If the player discards a card, he or she draws a card. If the player doesn't discard a card, he or she puts the top card of his or her library into his or her gy." This is cumulative - so for each mine triggering, all 8 chains will attempt to modify the actions occurring. But they occur individually...
    so:
    Automatic draw - 4 dreams trigger... and wait for priority...
    8 Howling Mines - all hit stack, priority is given, and dreams stack, so the opponent, once the dreams resolve (minding replacement/prevention), is dealt 4 damage.
    1st mine - 8 Chains stack. The opponent has 8 cards in hand, he then discards for each chain and draws a card. (occurring individually) Each draw will trigger the 4 dreams which will wait for priority, then resolve - so for each mine out, the opponent will take 32 damage. discard 8 cards and draw 8 cards, then move onto the next "mine" ability...
    2nd Mine - ditto
    3rd - ditto
    4th - ditto
    and so on...

    So your opponent draws the automatic draw, takes 4+32+32+32+32+32+32+32+32= 260 damage, and discards and draws (1 for 1) a total of 64 times using up 128 cards... still leaving 8 cards in his or her hand... (if they've not lost to fail to draw, or life total state-based effects...

    Thanks for the question!...:D :cool: ;)

    And Nightstalkers - It's up to the judge... I'd say play the card, only because I don't see any reason to proxy, and it would be neat to slap down a signed by 2 people Lotus... Especially if you're playing sleeves, if not playing sleeves, the deck better be all alpha to start with...;)
  13. Lotus Mox New Member

    I have honestly no clue what happens, but wouldn't the other Chains trigger from the draw of that Chain? :)
  14. Nightstalkers Creature — Nightstalker

    Its a replacement effect which doesn't trigger itself. but multiple copies will trigger each other. Two chains and a howling mine would practically mill you right there. DUN DUN DUN! Behold, the Black "mill" deck.



    This is a replacement effect (see Rule T.10). [D'Angelo 1999/02/03]
    Cards which are drawn as a cost are affected by this card because
    replacement effects can be used on costs (see Rule T.10).
  15. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Lotus Mox - I'm not all knowing(though sometimes I think I am...), but I'm also not afraid to ask on something I'm not sure about... I PMed EricBess to see if I had missed anything and he was going to check this thread - had it not been correct he would've posted... I did learn something from him about replacement effects... ;)

    I understand your question, but all other rulings listed at CC that Nightstalkers didn't mention are listed below(bolded applicable ruling). The Chains only focus on the "draw" and not the draws inside them - why I don't know... :rolleyes: Now off to learn about this for the day...

    --If you cast a spell to draw extra cards (such as Ancestral Recall or Wheel of Fortune) at some time outside the draw step, this affects all the cards drawn. During the draw step, the first card drawn is not affected. [bethmo 1994/06/15]
    Only affects the drawing of cards. It does not affect spells like Demonic Tutor, Millstone, or Petra Sphinx which affect the library but do not say "draw" a card. [bethmo 1994/06/22]
    --If X cards are drawn as the resolution of a single spell/ability, then the game treats this as X separate "draw one card" actions (see Rule G.15.Ruling.2). So for each card that would be drawn, apply the effect. [D'Angelo 2000/07/06]
    --The effect is cumulative. If you have two of these out, each of them will modify on each draw (after the first one if during the draw step), and will cause the player to discard or to "mill" a card from their library. As they resolve in order, the player must discard if possible. Once the player fails to discard and instead "mills" a card, all further effects of additional Chains of Mephistopheles will not do anything. This is because the "mill" also replaces the draw effect and the player is no longer drawing a card. [WotC Rules Team 1996/12/03] You handle them in order. Each one makes you discard first and then continue or else mill a card and lose the draw.

    Nightstalkers - none of what happens with these is a cost...(I think you were just posting the replacement part and the cost part was included...);)
    Its a replacement effect which doesn't trigger itself. but multiple copies will trigger each other.
    To my understanding - it will only trigger once off each "draw", but not on the draws within each other...
    EB would have to give the definite there...;)

    "Unless I learn it today... got.... to... study.... test... less... than... a week away...."
  16. EricBess Active Member

    Actually, train, I meant to respond to this thread, but I god sidetracked by the current thread in "political".

    Okay, we all know what Howling Mine does, so at the beginning of the draw, 1 draw and 4 damage before Chains kicks in at all with 8 additional "draw a card" on the stack. There is no reason to consider the 4 Underworld Dreams controlled by the person drawing, as already pointed out. For my own reference, I retype the text to Chains here:

    Chains of Mephistopheles
    If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in a draw step, that player discards a card from his or her hand instead. If the player discards a card, he or she draws a card. If the player doesn't discard a card, he or she puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.

    So, the draw from a Howling Mine is about to resolve. There are 8 replacement abilities that want to replace the draw. When there are multiple replacement abilities, the affected player chooses which to apply, if other replacement abilities still apply, then they are applied as well in a similar fashion.

    So, before we begin, let's address the possibility that the player has some way to empty his hand prior to drawing for the Howling Mine (instants, or Wild Mongrel, for example). The player is about to draw a card, which will be replaced by Chains of Mephistopheles. He has no cards in hand, so he cannot discard, so he instead puts the top card of his library into his graveyard. The other 7 Chain's don't replace this action, so one card is milled, nothing else. Each successive Howling mine results similarly in one card milled. The fact that there are 7 other Chains makes no difference. No additional damage is taken from Underworld Dreams because there is nothing to replace.

    On the other hand, suppose the player does have cards in hand when the first Howling Mine resolves (X cards) and has no way to get rid of the cards. One of the chains replaces the "draw a card" with "Discard a card and draw a card". The other 7 chains are waiting around and can replace the "draw a card" portion of this with "draw a card and discard a card". So, train, I think you are incorrect on this one, sorry.

    Suppose you have 8 cards in hand after your first draw. You are about to draw another card, so you have to (discard a card, then draw a card), which becomes, which becomes, which becomes...
    (discard a card then (discard a card then (discard a card then...)))

    You get the idea. In the end, all 8 Chains cause a discard, so you discard all 8 cards, then there are no more Chains to replace the "draw a card" so you actually get to draw a card (and take 4 more pts of damage). Then, when the second Mine resolves, you discard, then try to discard, but can't, so you Mill (which can't be replaced by the other 6 Chain's).

    In summary, you are going to draw a card and take 4 points of damage. If you have fewer than 7 cards in hand at the beginning of the turn, you will discard your hand and mill 8 cards. For every 7 cards in your hand at the beginning of the turn, you will end up drawing a card, taking an additional 4 points of damage, and milling 1 fewer cards. After each card drawn, the player has a chance to get rid of cards in hand (either casting or discarding to an ability), which will affect the outcome accordingly.
  17. EricBess Active Member

    Okay, I wanted to answer the question before going back and reading the logic behind the answer given. train, read the bolded portion of your most recent post again after reading what I have posted and I think you will see how it applied.

    Also, you should both brush up on replacement abilities. They are actually quite easy as long as you know how to recognize them. Most of them have the word "instead" somewhere in the text.

    The main thing to remember about replacement abilities is that they do NOT trigger and do NOT use the stack. They simply replace the ability as it occurs. If multiple replacement abilities would affect the same event, the affected player chooses which one will affect the event. Then, if what the event is replaced with still allows other replacement abilities to apply, the do as well in turn.
  18. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Dang it...:mad: :( :rolleyes: :) ;) :D :cool:

    Gotta learn it somehow...
  19. Nightstalkers Creature — Nightstalker

    Ok buddy, try this one:

    I have a Lifeline in play.

    If I have played Deranged Hermit earlier in the game, and payed its echo.

    If I played a Ghitu Slinger from my hand using Sneak Attack, and targeted deranged hermit with the damage, would the Hermit come back at the end of the turn when killed at the end of the turn by the Slinger?
  20. train The Wildcard!!!...

    I have a Lifeline in play.

    If I have played Deranged Hermit earlier in the game, and payed its echo.

    If I played a Ghitu Slinger from my hand using Sneak Attack, and targeted deranged hermit with the damage, would the Hermit come back at the end of the turn when killed at the end of the turn by the Slinger?


    First - I have to assume(yeah I said assume) that the sneak ability your playing is during the end step - at least that's what I'm getting from your question...

    Now...

    Actually it would come back once the ability resolves at the end of the next turn - if killed during the end phase... and a creature was in play... if for some reason a creature was not in play before it resolved, then the hermit would not come back...

    The reason why is because the end phase would begin - this puts all the "at the end" triggers on the stack... Then the active player receives priority - and in this case it doesn't really matter which player, because you kill the hermit, the lifeline sees this and tags the card with the "at end of" which will occur during the next turn...

    It works like anurid brushhopper from Judgement:

    Anurid Brushhopper
    Color= Multi Type= Creature - Beast Cost= 1GW JU(R)
    Text (JU): 3/4. ; Discard two cards from your hand: Remove ~this~ from the game. Return it to play under its owner's control at end of turn.
    --If the ability is played during the End of Turn step, it will not return to play until the End of Turn step in the following turn. [Judgment FAQ 2002/05/28]

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