Another Timestamp Question

Discussion in 'Rules Questions' started by EricBess, Oct 10, 2002.

  1. EricBess Active Member

    Your opponant has Aurification in play:

    Aurification
    {2}{W}{W}
    Enchantment
    Whenever a creature deals damage to you, put a gold counter on it.
    Each creature with a gold counter on it is a Wall in addition to its other creature types. (Walls can't attack.)
    When Aurification leaves play, remove all gold counters from all creatures.

    You have a Mistform Wall in play:

    Mistform Wall
    {2}{U}
    Creature -- Illusion Wall
    1/4
    (Walls can't attack.)
    {1}: Mistform Wall's type becomes the creature type of your choice until end of turn.

    You have only one land, which you use to turn Mistform wall into an Elf. You attack with your Mistform Elf (er...wall), dealing damage and triggering Aurification.

    What happens and what is the creature type of your Mistform after combat?
  2. rkoelsch Angel Boy

    here is my guess

    it becomes a wall-elf til end of turn. at that point it becomes a wall. then the next time it is activated you get to choose the creature type and replace wall.

    I am probably wrong as this seems intuitive and if EB brought it up it must be really twisted.:D
  3. BigBlue Magic Jones

    Umm...

    You attack with your Mistform Wall - Which is creature type elf (changing types does not change cardnames - From onslaught FAQ) Assuming it deals combat damage to your opponent it gets a gold counter and becomes an Elf Wall until the end of turn, when it becomes type Illusion Wall Wall.

    The next turn you may activate your Mistform Wall again, make it an Ali-From-Cairo and attack. It will get another gold counter and become an Ali-From Cairo Wall until end of turn and will then become an Illusion Wall Wall Wall.

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

    EDIT- Well, I didn't stick to it. I added type Illusion in, which I'd missed... Whoops. :p
  4. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Well, after combat, it gets a gold counter and becomes an Elf Wall.

    Reasoning further: Then at the "until end of turn", it's effect goes away and it reverts back to an Illusion Wall Wall (from the gold counter). If you choose to activate its ability again on your next turn, I assume it overrides the gold counter, changing all the creature types of "Illusion Wall Wall" to "Elf" (or whatever you pick).
  5. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    Mistform Wall is an Elf when you attack with it. When it deals damage to the opponent, it gets a gold counter and becomes an Elf Wall.

    Unless there is some weird ruling that says the "...in addition to..." part of Aurification's ability actually sets the creature type to "Elf Wall" rather than just adding "Wall" to the type line (which I would be knda freaked out by if there was) then the Mistform Wall's ability will end during cleanup, leaving you with an Illusion Wall. Or I suppose it could be an Illusion Wall Wall, like Spidey said.
  6. EricBess Active Member

    Interesting. Not one person seems to have gotten this right. Perhaps we will have a debate when I post the answer...

    Even though the Gold Counter was added to the wall when it dealt combat damage, the timestamp of Aurification has nothing to do with when the Gold Counter was given. As such, The timestamp of the Mistform Wall (you're no fun, BB :D)'s ability is later than the timestamp of Aurification's ability.

    So, After it receives a gold counter, it will still remain an elf (and only an elf) until EOT, at which time it will revert back to being an Illusion Wall (or would it be an Illusion Wall Wall? - I like that)
  7. BigBlue Magic Jones

    Ok. It can remain an elf to timestamp, but I really am sure it is an Illusion Wall Wall, because it says add "Wall" in addition to it's other creature types, and doesn't say you can't or shouldn't double up on type.

    Another question, Animate wall on a Wall of Swords, if it attacks and get's a gold counter, it will still be able to attack won't it?
  8. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    Of course. How silly of me.

    Funny thing is, I got the timestamp thing straight on another question, and somehow ignored it on this one. :eek:
  9. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    again...

    From the first sentence, it seems to refer to the timestamp of Aurification permanent. Yet in the next you refer to its ability; i.e. the one linked to the gold counter which seems like it would be timestamped later. In addition, it seems the gold counter part is a dependency-type continuous effect; sort of like the Conversion/Phantasmal Terrain question. Can you clarify please?
  10. EricBess Active Member

    Let me put this another way. The gold counter itself has no timestamp. The ability which changes the creature type reads:

    Each creature with a gold counter on it is a Wall in addition to its other creature types. (Walls can't attack.)

    With that wording, the timestamp of the effect that makes it a wall is the same as the timestamp of Aurification.

    Contrast that to a hypothetical wording:

    Put a gold counter on that creature. That creature becomes a wall as long as it has a gold counter.

    The hypothetical wording timestamps the change to a wall at the time a gold counter is received, so it would override Mistform. However, that is not the case, which means that the Mistform's ability has a later timestamp than the Aurification (and overrides Aurification), even if the Aurification wasn't affecting it until after damage.

    And, BB, I'm not sure if there is a rule that specifically states that multiple creature types that are the same are combined, so I see no problem with saying that it is an Illusion Wall Wall. :D
  11. EricBess Active Member

    Yes. Animate Wall overrides the rule about walls not being able to attack. Making it a wall again (or a Wall Wall) won't change this. Aurification says nothing about the Wall not being able to attack. Yeah, it has the reminder text, but that isn't specific rules text, so it won't override Animate Wall.
  12. BigBlue Magic Jones

    Well, having reread the card...

    It won't become an Illusion Wall Wall Wall... It doesn't say anything about multiple gold counters stacking.

    So my initial 2nd round of attacking after becoming an Ali-From-Cairo won't result in the 3rd wall type. If it has one counter or 10 counters it only seems to add the single Wall type. Too bad...
  13. EricBess Active Member

    But, even with just one Gold counter, it could be an Illusion Wall Wall Wall if there were a second Aurification in play :D

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