Annoying U/W Control

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Crackdown

Guest
The deck I mentioned earlier is still at it, being used during upkeep (Orim's Chant imprinted on the Scepter with kicker paid) and backed by several counters and StP/Wrath for removal.

U/W deck:

4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Exalted Angel
4 Counterspell
4 Orim's Chant
4 Isochron Scepter
4 Wrath of God
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Foil

20 Islands and Plains (not sure allocation)


The only time I saw it beat was when a Damping Matrix got out on turn two with no counter or bounce available.

If one were playing a typical White Weenie or mono-black control, what sort of cards or strategy would prevail?
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
White Weenie: Winter Orb, StP, Wasteland/Strip Mine, Disenchant, renewable creature source like Kjeldoran Outpost, artifact mana so you're not affected by the Winter Orb, play only a couple creatures at a time to make him waste the Wrath (maybe a Soltari shadow creature).
 
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TheCasualOblivion

Guest
Dark Ritual, Duress, Hymn to Tourach and Hypnotic Specter. Rest of deck to taste.

Basically a case of seeing which deck draws better.
 

Killer Joe

New member
I would drop the 4 Intuitions for four Fact or Fictions.

<ALERT! Raise shield for flames!> :rolleyes:

Oh yeah, add more countermagic like Mana Leak or Arcane Denial.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
I think that's the deck he's playing against and wants help in trying to beat it using ww or mono-block control...
 

Killer Joe

New member
Okay, then tell your friend he needs to put more counter magic in his deck. :D

To beat it?

The Mirror! (UW Control with Millstones) :cool:
 
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TheCasualOblivion

Guest
are these casual games? Even I wouldn't field a deck like that. My annoying U/W(/r) isn't nearly that offensive.

Another stupid/pointless question...

Why Exalted Angel in this deck? This deck screams MORPHLING.
 
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TheCasualOblivion

Guest
Ah. Then I think your best chance would be a fast Black Control/Discard/Weenie deck. Duress + Hymn.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
I think he already said he was trying to beat it with these two deck styles:

If one were playing a typical White Weenie or mono-black control, what sort of cards or strategy would prevail?
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
I tested a more finely-tuned version of this archetype for Legacy with a friend. It can be a tough lock to get around. I can try to find our decklist if you would like.

If I had tested more, I could be sure of the details and be generally more thorough, but here is what I thought...

Against Survival decks: Scepter lockdown actually seems to have a slight (nothing amazing) advantage against what might be the best decks in the format. ATS finds it difficult playing a creature that can beat Morphling (or Exalted Angel if you can get it out). If the Survival deck can protect its SotF with Force of Will, it stands a good chance. If you can get a Scepter with a decent spell early on, your chances are even better.

Mono-blue/Forbidian/BBS/Whatever: Scepter lockdown only needs to resolve a 2 cc artifact. Blue control can easily go toe-to-toe with you in a counterwar, but it doesn't have a small spell that will win the game like that. Blue tends to do well against slow decks, but unless it can get appreciable card advantage, you are likely to come out on top.

Pox: Cursed Scroll will devastate you. Discard spells will hurt your ability to use countermagic. Pox can swing the game in its early stages. I never tested against anything like Pox. I am guessing, but I would not call it a good matchup. However, it has no way to deal with a Scepter, so things might be about even.

Combo: It should not be able to fight through your countermagic very well. Probably a decent matchup.

Aggro of any sort: Not insurmountable, but not particularly good. You can only deal with so many creatures in a short amount of time. If you can keep up a solid defense against creatures, time is usually on your side. The rapid beats that most aggro decks try to deal are rather unforgiving toward slow control decks.

Overall, I would not call this the best choice for Legacy in the current metagame. It has an edge against control, but not an impressive one. It is somewhat shaky against any aggro deck, which becomes a huge problem in this format (for now, at least). It has no matchups that are true autowins, and several where you are at a disadvantage.

Still, in a more casual setting, this thing's potent tech can become even more deadly. The decklist is missing the manabase (what is up with that happening so much around here?) and doesn't have enough countermagic. I would still imagine it would do well against most monoblack control decks (unless they're tuned or use broken cards or something). White Weenie could potentially outrace this deck, but it depends on the build...
 
C

Crackdown

Guest
I updated the list a little, forgot the Foils in the decklist.

If he gets the scepter out with Orim's Chant very early, it's really tough to avoid the lock, especially with Wrath and StP to remove an effective creature. Once he gets the second Scepter out with Counterspell imprinted, it's pretty much a wait until the Factories or Exalted Angel kill.

I thought mono-black control with an excellent draw would be effective, as the discard engine could cause severe problems. Duress, Distress, Hymn to Tourach and possibly Encroach could be useful to rid the hand of the Scepter, Orim's Chant and Intuition if he doesn't draw a Force of Will initially. Artifact removal once the Scepter is in play is tough though for mono-black.

For Casual Play, I'd probably congratulate the guy and go get a pizza. This deck is really annoying.
 
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Mikeymike

Guest
I would certainly recommend City of Solitude or Dosan (The Leaf Which No Longer Remains on the Tree). They both stop counter-magic and Isochron's scepter cold. Xantid Swarm would not be as good, since it can't get around the Scepter-Chant lock. I'd lean towards the City, since he's got no main-deck answers to enchantments (why? I don't know), but Dosan could be effective if you use the following...

Alternatives include Ench/Arts that drop your creatures into play for free. You'll need to sneak 1 of them around counter-spell, but if you do you can start dropping utility creatures to help take out problem artifacts. Cards include:
Sneak Attack
Quicksilver Amulet
Belbe's Portal
AEther Vial (which as a turn 1 cast might be the way to go)

Other cards which will hurt the hell out of him are
Pyroclastic Pillar
Spellshock

Also, run Shivan Gorge. Its slow, but it does get around Chant and Counterspell.
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Well, as far as playing against it, there are several possibilities. The deck I noticed being problematic for Scepter lockdown was URG Madness (which is of course quite tough for a casual player to build). If I had to go up against this deck, I would definitely use aggro of some sort...

And I think for any controlish deck with green, Mikeymike's City of Solitude idea would be a good call. Although in tournament play, no one would want to have dedicated sideboard slots specifically for UW Control (it's not a bad enough matchup).
 
C

Crackdown

Guest
City of Solitude is a great card and with green, Spinter is available. Getting them out past counter-magic will be the problem. CoS is a bit like Damping Matrix in effect for him and I'm not sure which one I like more.
 
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Mikeymike

Guest
Ahh, run 4x Elvish Scrappers, or Seal of Cleansing. Basically sleeping D-chants that might be able to get in before he can cast/use the Scepter.

Also, TCO's idea for discard would be sound, because is running zero card-draw in a U/W control deck, which is just asking for trouble.

The reason I like the City over the Damping Matrix is because the City stops both Counterspell and the Scepter, while the Matrix stops the Scepter and the Mishra's Factory.
 
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Troll

Guest
About a year ago I had a deck based on the same combo and I took it to a 26 person type 1 tourney and placed 2nd. It was a beast. With a good hand, I could have the opponent locked 1st turn. The only reason I lost (only loss was in finals) was to a Stompy deck with TONS of artifact hate in the board. My deck was more or less this (this is from memory so it's not an exact list):

Scrublands x4
Plains
Swamps
Mox Pearl
Mox Jet
Chrome Mox
Sol Ring
Mana Vault
Mana Crypt

Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Isocron Sceptor x4
Swords to Plowshares x3
Death Grasp x2
Orim's Chant
Dark Ritual x4
Jade Statue x3
Wrath of God x4
Disenchant x2
Phyrexian Scuta x2
Hypnotic Specter x4
Hymn to Tourach x4
Relic Ward x2
 
R

Rooser

Guest
To beat this deck you need to do the following:

1) You need to thanks the heavens he's dumb enough to play with Foil over Memory Lapse in a scepter Deck.

2) You need damage sources that aren't creatures and can cast sooner than he can cast The Scepter. So, The Rack and Cursed Scroll it is.

3) You need Mana acceleration in the form of 4x Dark Ritual and 5 moxes. By "5 moxes" I mean 4 Chrome and 1 Mox Diamond, (Or 3 and 2 if it suits you better). This is the mathematical optimum for hoping you have at least two mana to play around with on turn 1.

4) You need heavy disruption. Duress, Hymn to Tourach, Hypnotic Specter, Sinkhole, Wasteland.

Right now we have the following deck:

Manas (26)
Wasteland x4
Swamp x13
Chrome Mox x4
Mox Diamond x1
Dark Ritual x4

Damage (8)
Cursed Scroll x4
The Rack x4

Disruption (16)
Duress x4
Hymn x4
Sinkhole x4
Hippy x4

This is 50 cards. We need 10 more.

I'd go with extra disruption and control, plus a teeny card drawing.

More (10)
Chain of Smog x4
Diabolic Edict x4
Skeletal Scrying x2

Chain of Smog just might be the secret all-star against a scepter deck. You always have the threat of holding the one Cursed Scroll you need to win when you hit the chain so they will usually never hit you back and if they do you'll probably just make them pay. It's like having 8 Hymns in your deck!
 
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