All Hallows Eve...

Discussion in 'Rules Questions' started by Nightstalkers, Oct 31, 2002.

  1. train The Wildcard!!!...

    "Your Honor, I'd like to call my next witness... What's that, well yes sir, I know she's a porn star and she knows nothing about Magic, but she can testify your Honor that in today's world... It is all about the Active Player!!!..."

    I'm just trying to say that since the active player chooses the order of the effects, then the active player must be the one determining their order on the stack...

    Here's a card example... My opponent has 2 Laquatus's champions in his graveyard and a faceless butcher, and I have nothing which will be brought into play...

    Now, according to the ruling... Since I'm the active player, I wish to order the effects this way, Champion, Champion, butcher... This way, His champions will hit me for 12, then his butcher comes in and takes 1 away for a net loss of 6 life only... In order to order the effects this way, They have to be on the stack in that order... or campion, butcher, champion... But... if the ruling was not there, my opponent could stack the butcher's effect first and then 2 champions and I'd lose a net of 12 life...

    That's all I'm saying is that the NAP does not really matter according to the ruling, and stacking the triggers is implied by the ruling... or else the ruling does nothing...

    "But your Honor, I just spent a week in contempt! Can the porn star come with me?!!...";)
  2. Ferret CPA Founder, Slacker

    If you would like to fix rules questions w/ old cards and you don't feel like consulting half the internet, WotC's help line, and whatever deity you worship:

    take a vote. Ask all of your fellow players what they think. If everyone is just there to have fun it should stay honest and everyone should be content w/ the outcome...

    -Ferret

    "...that's how I survived Homelands...'
  3. Notepad Seffy Sefro

    good suggestion, Ferret! My gawd, I'm surprised nobody even thinks of this anymore.

    Funny thing is, "back in the day" there was a rulebook that suggested doing this for the game. I think it may have been Decipher's Star Trek, but I'm not sure.
  4. Ferret CPA Founder, Slacker

    I remember seeing the same thing in Illuminati: New World Order's rules. In a free for all game I played at a 'con a few years ago. If one of us had a rules question we'd look it up. If the rules didn't cover it we came to a vote. Since we were all playing in fun there was no problems. I miss that game. It was so simple and fun...

    -Ferret

    "...and the best part was that the game ENCOURAGED cheating!"
  5. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Judge Ferret's verdict shall reign supreme for all fun play... but if using the actual card - it does say all this on there to start with...

    You should have seen the reaction when I used the M:TG backed deck of playing cards I had to trump someone's land when they played it...

    I had to convince them a 9 of diamonds trumped their swamp... but couldn't stop laughing...:D
  6. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    Objection, Your Honor.

    I'm going to put this part in bold to call attention to it.

    G.34.3 does not refer to abilities. It refers to continuous effects. If it meant triggered abilities, it would say abilities.

    And I'm going to put this part in bold as well.

    The rulings you cited are not part of the card text! The Golden Rule does not apply to them!

    And you don't have to consult half the Internet. You can consult me.

    (- Steve -)
  7. train The Wildcard!!!...

    For purposes of ordering any effects of the creatures, the active player decides the ordering regardless of which player is putting the creatures into play. See Rule G.34.3. [D'Angelo 2000/03/03]

    How is a continuous effect an effect "of the creatures"???...

    Also - Can an admin move this to Rules please?...
  8. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Thanks Admin!!!...:D
  9. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    The word "of", in this context, means "generated by". That sentence means "...continuous effects [generated by] creatures". If the ruling was meant to apply to abilities of creatures, they would have indicated so by using the word "abilities" rather than "effects".

    I bolded the important part, once again.

    (- Steve -)
  10. Nightstalkers Creature — Nightstalker

    good god!

    We only made this thread for comments about Hallows Eve...

    It has evolved into pure glory!
  11. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Maybe EricBess can weigh in here?

    Although it seems to me that if there's additional rulings as "part of the card", they ought to be followed. Maybe someone should contact D'Angelo and ask him?
  12. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Spidey's Back!!!!!!!!

    Did you have the youngin???...

    Let me know so us Texans can go out and shoot up a few rounds for you.... We like any reason to pull out the heavy artilley...

    Where is EB, he's a 3 now, he can settle this I suppose...

    I won't contact D'Angelo, cause last time I tried that Hatter got in trouble... and then they made my question into an actual rule with 6th!!!... or was it 5th?...
  13. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Yeah, you probably saw my post in Off-Topic by now. Go shoot 'em up! :p

    Nothing wrong with making your question into a rule... unless it went against you :p
  14. train The Wildcard!!!...

    *6-shooters blaze ammo into the evening sky in celebration of Zephyr!!!*

    The question was whether or not a creature could gain first strike between the dmg dealing phases in combat... At the time there was not a setting aside of each creature determining which step they'd deal damage in...

    the rule simply read: Creatures with First Strike may only deal damage during the first strike damage phase... etc...

    So I was going to give first strike to creatures between the 2 and th flat out ruling was that there was not even a chance to give the creature first strike...

    Now there is... and they added a clause stating that if a creature gained first strike between the steps they dealt damage during their "normal" damage dealing step...

    Anyway...

    D'Angelo called Hatter and chewed on him... I had called the WOTC operator and been transferred to D'Angelo's voice mail and left the rules question on his mail...

    Hatter wasn't there when I needed it answered so he knew nothing about it, but D'Angelo thought Hatter had told me to call him... Needless to say, Hatter told me to always go through him first...:rolleyes: :eek:
  15. EricBess Active Member

    Was there a question? I've sort of only been glancing at this particular thread. Let me look it over a bit...
  16. EricBess Active Member

    If I understand correctly, the question comes down to the ordering of abilities. Does it follow AP/NAP order or does the card override this.

    First of all, the current wording of All Hallow's Eve does not contain the phrasing that the original did about the controller of All Hallow's Eve chooses the ordering, so that argument must be supported by the rules.

    I could search for it, but there is a rule that effectively states that the player who controls the ability that puts multiple permanents into play at the same time gets to control the timestamp ordering of the permanents.

    However, the timestamp ordering has absolutely nothing to do with Coming Into Play (CIP) abilities. That happens once a player would recieve priority and any CIP abilities are placed on the stack, first those controlled by the active player, then those controlled by the non-active player (AP/NAP).

    So, what does the whole thing from De'Angelo mean? Let me present you with two hypothetical creatures... Okay, at least one of these cards actually exists, but the other is completely hypothetical and should never be used with Aquamoeba:

    Card 1
    All other black creatures get +1/+1

    Card 2
    All other creatures get +X/+0 where X is that creature's toughness

    Say these cards are in opposing graveyards when All Hallow's Eve puts them into play. They come into play simultaniously, as well as a Black Bear (1B black 2/2 - it could happen).

    Question - what is the p/t of the Bear? There is no dependency loop here. Both card 1 and card 2 came into play simultaniously, so they have the same timestamp, right? No, there is always a timestamp order. I can't think when it matters much with just creatures (enchantments and abilities usually make it matter more often), but in this hypothetical situation, the bear could be either 6/3 or a 5/3, depending on which effect is applied first.

    Basically, what the rules say (and what the comments on All Hallow's Eve are referring to) is that the controller of All Hallow's Eve get's to determine the timestamp order. CIP abilities are still handled normally.

    Was there another question somewhere, or did this handle it? I still didn't read the whole thread thouroughly. It got a little bogged down for a while :D
  17. train The Wildcard!!!...

    I was reading the ruling as:

    For purposes of ordering any effects of the creatures, the active player decides the ordering regardless of which player is putting the creatures into play. See Rule G.34.3. [D'Angelo 2000/03/03]

    So this is specifically referring to effects of something life timestamp....

    See, what I'm looking at is that CIP abilities generate effects... so wouldn't those CIP abilities be ordered by the controller of All Hallow's Eve???...
  18. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    Thanks Eric. You answered the question. I'm never wrong. :D :D :p

    (- Steve -)
  19. EricBess Active Member

    The thing you have to realize, train, is that D'Angelo isn't official. This is one of those times where the wording of D'Angelo could have been much better, but the CIP, while an effect, is not the type of effect that he is referring to. He's referring more to continuous effects, but wasn't really clear.
  20. train The Wildcard!!!...

    I miss the time when D'Angelo was official...:(

    But Puff was right...

    Thanks EB!!!...:cool:

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