A rules puzzle

Discussion in 'Rules Questions' started by Jigglypuff, Sep 5, 2002.

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How does combat resolve?

Poll closed Sep 8, 2002.
Both the Grizzly Bears and the Plains die. 0 vote(s) 0.0%
Both the Grizzly Bears and the Plains live. 2 vote(s) 28.6%
The Grizzly Bears die and the Plains lives. 0 vote(s) 0.0%
The Plains die and the Grizzly Bears live. 5 vote(s) 71.4%
  1. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    I borrowed this puzzle from MTGNews.com, so if you read the puzzle over there, please don't respond. If you would like to answer the puzzle, I encourage you to vote on the poll before you read the responses to this thread. I will come back to this thread in 3 days and give the answer.

    Here's the situation:

    You have a Forest, a Plains, and a Taiga in play. You also have a Natural Emergence. Your opponent has a Grizzly Bears and a Dream Thrush in play. He has 4 lands in play, but only 1 Forest untapped.

    You declare an attack with the Plains. Your opponent blocks with the Grizzly Bears. You pass priority and he plays a Giant Growth targeting the Grizzly Bears. You both pass and the Giant Growth resolves. You then play a Gaea's Might targeting the Plains. You both pass and the Gaea's Might resolves. You pass and your opponent plays the ability of the Dream Thrush targeting the Plains. You both pass and the ability of the Dream Thrush resolves. When it resolves, your opponent names Island. You both pass and you go to the combat damage step. How does combat resolve?

    Dream Thrush
    {1}{U}
    Creature -- Bird
    1/1
    Flying
    {T}: Target land's type becomes the basic land type of your choice until end of turn.

    Gaea's Might
    {G}
    Instant
    Target creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn for each basic land type among lands you control.

    Giant Growth
    {G}
    Instant
    Target creatures gets +3/+3 until end of turn.

    Grizzly Bears
    {1}{G}
    Creature -- Bear
    2/2

    Natural Emergence
    {2}{R}{G}
    Enchantment
    When Natural Emergence comes into play, return a red or green enchantment you control to its owner's hand.
    Lands you control are 2/2 creatures with first strike. They're still lands.

    Taiga
    Land
    Taiga is a mountain and a forest in addition to its land type.

    (- Steve -)
  2. Zero T Katama Silver Shadow Guardian

    I believe that both the Plains and the Grizzly bears will die because at the time of resolution of gaea's might, you have only 3 basic land types in play. The Plains, the Forest, and the Taiga counting as Forest and Mountain. So Gaia's might would grand +3/+3, while Giant growth would do the same.
  3. Lotus Mox New Member

    The real question is: Why the hell didn't the Grizzly Bear controller wait until first strike damage is on the stack before he plays the Giant Growth?
    Not responding to the Gaea's Might with the Thrush was also very clever.
  4. EricBess Active Member

    Zero - You're forgetting the first strike.

    Lotus - Exactly. Even if he's not clever enough to do the first strike trick, the least he could have done was turn the Taiga into a Plains in response to the Might.

    The real question is whether or not the Dream Thrush's ability removes First Strike.
  5. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    Don't be dissing on the opponent's actions. The point of the puzzle is to figure out what happens and why, not why the opponent was being silly.

    (- Steve -)
  6. BigBlue Magic Jones

    Actually, it's a loaded question. . .

    The plains can't die or live. . . It's now an Island.

    But, I believe the Island lives and the Grizzly Bear Dies.
  7. Mikeymike Captain Hiatus

    Well if these guys can't figure out how to play their own decks properly I seriously doubt they will get this ruling correct :D.

    I don't understand the significance of the Dream Thrush's activation - unless somehow it kills the Emergence effect which I don't see. But the Plains/Island survives. A 5/5 first-striker kills a 5/5.
  8. EricBess Active Member

    There are type-changing abilities that would change things. For example, A Fairy conclave that becomes a Forest after activation will remain a creature, but will lose flying.

    This is similar. However, the Thrush specifically states that it changes only the land's type.

    I'll need to look up the Fairy Conclave thing to see specifically what it was referring to, but that's the basic upshot - does the Plains, in becoming and Island, lose first strike?
  9. train The Wildcard!!!...

    The NE's ability is not a timestamp effect it applies to all "lands", even if the type changes this does not remove the 1st strike. This isn't a "new" creature - it's type - land type- has just been changed. The plains - now island becomes a 5/5 first striker killing the bears.

    The might's ability doesn't get lost - the creature is still there.

    I believe that's the way it works.

    Where's the sqiuirrels when you need them to chump block - playing with their nuts... I mean acorns...

    Though were all trying our best on this, we'll probably be wrong somehow, thus the Infernal Spawn of Evil will be seeking Revenge.
  10. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    Well, I guess it's time to post the answer to the question, isn't it.

    The correct answer is:

    1. Both the Grizzly Bears and the Plains die.

    Most of you recognized that the Taiga has two basic land types and will contribute +2/+2 to the Gaea's Might, giving the land creature +3/+3. However, the big sticking point was after the Plains was changed into an Island. The Plains/Island does lose first strike.

    214.9f If an effect changes a permanent into a basic land, the permanent no longer has its old land type and has only the mana ability of that basic land. It is now a basic land, and its name is that basic land's name. If that land was "Legendary," it is no longer. This rule doesn't apply to effects that cause a land to gain one or more land types in addition to its own.

    Some of you may be wondering, "Well, why doesn't the Natural Emergence give the Plains/Island first strike again?"

    418.5d A continuous effect can override another.
    Example: Two enchantments are played on the same creature: "Enchanted creature gains flying" and "Enchanted creature loses flying." Neither of these depends on the other, since nothing changes what they affect or what they're doing to it. Applying them in timestamp order means the one that was generated last "wins." It's irrelevant whether an effect is temporary (such as "Target creature loses flying until end of turn") or global (such as "All creatures lose flying").

    As you can see, the Thrush's ability has a later timestamp than the Natural Emergence and so it's effect will win and temporarily hide the first strike ability.

    If you have any other questions, feel free to post them.

    (- Steve -)
  11. Zero T Katama Silver Shadow Guardian

    I am vindicated. So nyeh. :p
  12. Lotus Mox New Member

    You'll learn something new all the time. :)


    The Grizzly Bears controller is still a sucky magic player :p
  13. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    This was a fascinating excercise. Please do consider posting more.

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