A New Concept Set

  • Thread starter Thallid Ice Cream Man
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Thallid Ice Cream Man

Guest
(CT or Spidey: Could you make an announcement on the main page with the next update? If you choose to do so, thanks very much. :))

I was thinking recently about the fact that I've had a lot of trouble designing cards these past few months.
I just didn't have any ideas for ways to start a flow, if you know what I mean, a group of card concepts that could give ideas for further cards with little twists on them... those of you who design a lot of cards might know what I mean.

I was also thinking about how when we have worked on sets together in the CPA, the efforts always came down to one person (usually FoR or, more recently (although it's mostly his set), Shiro) posting a bunch of cards from time to time and the occasional contribution from someone else.

Then I remembered the Sliver set, which was probably the longest running effort (well, maybe Casualties of War was longer)... but still petered out at the end.

It seemed to me, though, that while we ended up with about as many cards for the Sliver set as we did for Subterfuge (our most recent attempt at this... which has basically been abandoned, not that it's any one person's fault), the sliver cards came much more quickly. The reason for this, I soon realized, is that there was a mechanic - slivers - on which people could easily build, because it's simple and a duality; that is, either you're a sliver, or you're not, and it's far easier to build cards based on how they deal with one group or another than with nothing in mind. This prospect, combined with artifice, another mechanic made up for that set, seemed to bode well for it.

I propose, therefore, that we start a new set with some sort of extra ability - one which, in and of itself, is fairly meaningless, but which means a lot when taken in the context of other cards. For example, there could be a continuous ability for permanents called "pure" or "impure" (or whatever you want to call it, I don't care much about the name) ... permanents that are it or aren't are affected by other cards designed to work for one or the other.

Preferably these abilities would not be distributed too much along color lines; that would make the ability less meaningful.

Here, for example, is a perfectly bland sample spell, but one which could get ideas going.

____
1R
Instant
____ deals 3 damage to target impure creature or to target player.


"But wait!" I hear you ask. "Why will this set not just fail like the others?"
Well, we have lots of experience with these sets, our membership has changed since the last time we tried setting up one of these things (about a year and a half ago, if I recall) , and so if we make sure to structure this one differentl we should be fine.

(And if nothing else, we could hype the kweh out of this one. :D)

To those who would ask, no, you don't have to give up on your own sets, and we aren't necessarily giving up on Subterfuge. If we instead carefully plan this out we won't have to end up with a formless mass of cards, and we might go back to Subterfuge later...

Anyway, please post with any comments you may have.
 
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FoundationOfRancor

Guest
I think any idea where players make cards are great. Personally, I dont like using named mechanics (Which is what I think Thallid is talking about). Something about using worded mechanics just seems...unreal, to me. However, I volunteer any cards I have ever made previously to be in the set, and to be changed in any way. I'd like to see how many people want to do this and watch them begin before I offer my full help and dedication (Like creating cards, orgnazing, gathering members, card analysis, etc..)

However, If you are going to do this Thallid, I suggest you make Impure/Pure (Or whatever mechanic you decide to use) staple twists right away (Like an Impure counterspell, or the Incinerate), and get them behind you.

I look forward to seeing how this turns out, good luck Thallid!


PS: Have you seen Morph Thallid? And, if so, what do you think about it?
 
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Thallid Ice Cream Man

Guest
Originally posted by FoundationOfRancor
I think any idea where players make cards are great. Personally, I dont like using named mechanics (Which is what I think Thallid is talking about). Something about using worded mechanics just seems...unreal, to me. However, I volunteer any cards I have ever made previously to be in the set, and to be changed in any way. I'd like to see how many people want to do this and watch them begin before I offer my full help and dedication (Like creating cards, orgnazing, gathering members, card analysis, etc..)

However, If you are going to do this Thallid, I suggest you make Impure/Pure (Or whatever mechanic you decide to use) staple twists right away (Like an Impure counterspell, or the Incinerate), and get them behind you.

I look forward to seeing how this turns out, good luck Thallid!
First of all, thanks for the support. :)
I know what you mean about named mechanics: most of the named mechanics people make up are just simplifications of a lot of reproducible text (like when people give a black creature "Fear," that being shorthand for the "can't be blocked except by artifact and/or black creatures" bit), so I don't see the point of doing most of that stuff...
...but this mechanic is different. I think of it as an anti-mechanic, in that it doesn't recreate the same rules situations over and over again on lots of cards (like buyback or echo), but lets other cards serve as the catalysts. Permanents that are "impure" do not necessarily do anything interesting just because they are "impure," but in terms of their interaction with other cards, making it closer to *gasp* snow covered lands than anything else. (I think they should have done more with snow covered lands, but perhaps the fact that it was only one card type was a turnoff.)

I hear you on the staple thing though. I think I'll make 20-25 staple cards within the next week or so and (hopefully) we'll start from there.

By the way... do you think maybe I should get this thread moved to the CPA/Magic Issues forum? As the set is in planning stages right now it isn't many actual cards.

Originally posted by FoundationOfRancor
PS: Have you seen Morph Thallid? And, if so, what do you think about it?
I saw it after I posted this thread, and I'm pretty enthusiastic about it. It seems like the most exciting named mechanic since kicker (I'm talking about first impressions that is).
Of course, it might turn into the most annoying mechanic ever printed if it hasn't been worked out well ahead of time. :p
Then again, they might errata Illusionary Mask because of it.
 
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Shiro, Time Devourer

Guest
Radiant Warmth
2R
Pure
Target Pure player gains 8 life unless any Impure player has Radiant Warmth deal 8 damage to him or her.
 
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FoundationOfRancor

Guest
No one has even decided if the Pure/Impure thing is the way to go, or how to do it. Plus, how can you have a Pure player?

Can you not make so many Threads Shiro?
 
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Thallid Ice Cream Man

Guest
I basically agree with FoR.
We should start by working out some of the technical details of the set, and then making some typical interactions into staple cards, followed by the rest of the cards for however long we decide on doing them.

Of course, as you own any card ideas you've posted, you can not only save ideas you have had until later, but, if you want, you can take any card you've posted and alter it to fit into the set (although if you've worked with other people on those cards I suggest you see what they think of it first).

However, I'm still glad you're interested in the set. :)

(By the way, the "founders" of the most recent set, Subterfuge, are not here anymore so anyone can update his or her own cards from that set legally without any trouble. If you want to update a card someone else originally posted, it's a different issue...)
 
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Shiro, Time Devourer

Guest
Thallid, I have a way to help you out. You can adopt any cards from my posts and Upheaval that you see fit to put into your set. In addition, you can take a look at the Overdrive mechanic, Emulation, and my unique creature types (Castes) and see if you want to do anything with them. As long as you don't warp the main idea and colors of the castes, you're in the clear.
 
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Thallid Ice Cream Man

Guest
About the mechanics: I think one named mechanic is enough, so I don't think I'll expressly include any of those, but some of those concepts might make a "cameo" appearance (with thanks to you, that is).

I'll take a look at Upheaval (the set) once I've made those staple cards.

Again, thanks for the support.
...
(makes hand symbol of acknowledgement)


By the way, I was looking through the card filters on Apprentice and I decided to look at the percentage of permanents to cards total in most sets. When I did, I saw that most sets have about 20% sorceries and instants, and 80% permanents. This figure is significant both because it's less in favor of spells than I thought it was and because it means that perhaps 60% of this new set might have the mechanic I'm talking about (that is, if it is realized that way).
But the sets in Type II have less and less permanents - Torment, for example, is more than one-third non permanent spells, which is a far cry from the 6.8% of Fallen Empires which is nonpermanent spells.
So do you think a set with a mechanic that a lot of permanents have/don't have should have a lot of permanents?
 
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Shiro, Time Devourer

Guest
A set with a mechanic common to a lot of permanents should have enough of them that you can have plenty of that mechanic in the set without it overtaking the whole environment.

70% permanents/30% one-shots sounds good.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Sorry, TICM, I just got to this thread after my "second" vacation. Do you still want an announcement?
 
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Thallid Ice Cream Man

Guest
Eh, at this point I think it can wait until we get the backbone of the set in.
 
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Shiro, Time Devourer

Guest
Smog Alert
1B
Prevent all damage creatures would do this turn
(Mechanic TBA)- All creatures get -1/-1 in addition.

Do you want a booster mechanic (Like Threshold, Kicker, etc.) in your set?
 
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Thallid Ice Cream Man

Guest
Sammy Dead-O: Ah yes, the penguins. Why exactly weren't they in Subterfuge? It was probably a flavor reason.
Anyway, I think they could go in. Quite frankly I don't think they should be as big as kavu or cephalids, but they can have a significant presence in blue's creatures.
Feel like giving Glacial Aviary another try? :)

Shiro: Well, I might not put in a "booster" mechanic, I'll be thinking about that.
What your question reminded me of is the fact that while the permanents will have an overarching mechanic, the spells won't. So while I don't think I'll make up a named mechanic for them (because I think spells at least should just have the text printed on them) a mini-mechanic seems like a good idea.

Or... I just had this idea as I finished the last paragraph, so I'll mention it.
There could be 6 or so mini-mechanics - nothing that defines the whole spell, but a little identifier of sorts - throughout the spells, so that almost all of the spells have them.
What is in Upheaval called Overdrive could be one of them (though of course they aren't named).

How do these two ideas sound?

Smog Alert: I'm really having a hard time deciding what color this card should be. We might as well keep it in mind, but I don't know what to do with it... I just don't think black should be preventing all creature damage (Darkness notwithstanding).
 
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Sammy Dead-O

Guest
Originally posted by Thallid Ice Cream Man
Sammy Dead-O: Ah yes, the penguins. Why exactly weren't they in Subterfuge? It was probably a flavor reason.
Coulda been. Or maybe just cuz I never put in enough effort to get 'em in there. Rest assured, though, I'll do what I can to get 'em in this set! And yes, I would like to see the Aviary come about sometime...

Oh, and size-wise, I agree. I see them as rather Merfolk-like in size, preferably somewhat beatdownish. (I do love the blue beatdown...)
 
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Sammy Dead-O

Guest
Well, let's do something here. For the staples, let's figure out what we need. I guess these would be good categories to start with (evening out the numbers per color, perhaps, to make cycles):

BLUE
counter
card drawer
bounce
color-manipulator

BLACK
discard
creature kill
-X/-X type spell
Drain Life effect
tutor

RED
burn
land destruction
artifact destruction
"can't block" effect

GREEN
pump
Fog effect
land searching/mana acceleration/color smoothing

WHITE
Disenchant effect
life gain
creature/attacker kill/removal from game


Okay, what about this: What if we had a cycle of creature enchantment pairs that worked like the Nemesis seals, except each one could enchant only a pure or impure creature? Something like:

Aether Feathers
1U
~CARDNAME~ can only enchant a pure creature.
Enchanted creature has flying.
Sacrifice ~CARDNAME~: Return target creature to its owner's hand.

Spiketail Hatchling's Library Card
1U
~CARDNAME~ can only enchant an impure creature.
Whenever enchanted creature deals combat damage to a player, draw a card.
Sacrifice ~CARDNAME~: Counter target spell unless its controller pays 1.

Shivan Zippo
1R
~CARDNAME~ can only enchant a pure creature.
Enchanted creature has first strike.
Sacrifice ~CARDNAME~: ~CARDNAME~ deals two damage to target creature or player.

Directions to a Frat Party
3R
~CARDNAME~ can only enchant an impure creature.
Enchanted creature has haste.
Sacrifice ~CARDNAME~: Destroy target land.

And so on (and the pairings of abilities can obviously be switched up within colors...haste is pretty useless on a 3R creature enchantment, I guess).

If pure and impure creatures are a big theme, then Enchant Creatures might be nice to go along with them.

Let me know what y'all think.
 
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Shiro, Time Devourer

Guest
It's just that smog (being pollution) doesn't sound like something green would enjoy using, despite its visibility-hosing capabilities.
 
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Zero T Katama

Guest
Also, and this is just a thematic standpoint, why would White spells reward Impurity, or have any Impure cards/spells? They should punish Impurity. The reverse seems true for black. Now if you can explain that satisfactorily, I'd go along with it.
 
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Shiro, Time Devourer

Guest
Ijaluaaq, Arctic Guardian
5UU
Creature- Penguin Lord Legend
During your upkeep, you may put X 1/1 blue penguins into play. X is the number of creatures your opponents control. At the beginning of your turn, remove all penguin tokens from the game.
If you control the most non-token permanents, all Penguins get +2/+2.
4/4
 
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