Content of Posts...

[Spiderman]

Originally posted by DÛke
...

What funny is how you don't ask any resources when Arhar posts anything...

No offense to arhar, but if you notice, he tends to be a bit more passionate in his reponses and that they (to the best of my knowledge) aren't generally factual; it's more obvious it's his opinion. He's not saying "well, this happened and this is the history and blah, blah, blah". Additionally, he tends to fall out after a first couple of responses.

You didn't know the U.S. is a dictatorship, yet you call yourself "American"? Just how un-informed are you -- exactly?

Oh lordy, this just takes the cake. You obviously don't know what a dictatorship is if you think the US is one, and now your claims of "being informed" have just been shot. I'm sorry Duke, but I can no longer consider anything you say to be much of anything if you don't even recognize this.

Gizmo: I pretty much agree with your assessment and the only thing I don't is your opinion that "patriotism is a Bad Thing". As long as we don't cross over to Nationalism (from your assessment), I don't see cause for alarm. Discomfit, maybe.

Ura:

Well, I consider small arms against mechanized infantry to be little, I also consider teenage males throwing rocks to be little to inconsiquential. To say that a peson threw a rock at your tank or jeep or squad, so you shot him is just a HUGE overreaction, but its what I call little to no resistance.
Notice how the Isreali's are finding some of these arms caches but they are basically untouched. I would wager that most Palastinians don't even know about them because they're just ordinary people. If the kind of weapons in the caches were available to all the Palastinians then I doubt Isreal could have just walked in as they did.

I don't think there's much rock-throwing in this "invasion". And I agree that largely, Palestinians are innocent. It's the "bad apples" that's unfortunately bringing it down on the rest of them

Incidentally there have only been 23 Isreali casualties as confirmed by the Isreali government.

Any word from Palestinian sources?

Well since 9/11 Isreal hasn't done anything that it seriously considered for more then token movements to sooth the US and other world powers. Mind you if we decide to just take a small chunk of history like that we could say that the US is unlawfully occupying a foreign country without reason because there haven't been any big terrorist attacks since say . . . Christmas. You have to look at the full scale in situations like these because so much of the past is what is causing the future.

The whole point of this topic was that there have been numerous suicide bombings since 9/11, yet only the "last two" have triggered an invasion.

[You'd be surprised at what people don't notice. Just walking down the street, can you remember how many sports cars passed you, or how many people were say wearing a baseball hat. Was there a bird singing in the air, were there worms on the sidewalk from a fresh rain. People really don't notice all that much in the world around them, its worse in north america then other places, but if a little guy crawl under a car to duct tape a bomb to the frame and take 2 mintues to wire it in, its highly unlikely anyone will notice unless theres a police officer or soldier right there. Common civilians just don't put two and two together alot of the time.

Perhaps Gizmo can answer this better, but since Britain had experienced "regular" car bombings, I would think they would be more alert.

This is true, but its pretty much impossible for Palastinians to have a clean record against Israel since its the original jewish settlers to the area that technically invaded them for a homeland with some world support. There was no more violence against them in the arab lands in the 20's then there was anywhere else with the possible exception or the US or Canada.

They didn't "invade", they were already there. The Arabs didn't like the partitioning. And since they did co-exist "peacefully" before the announcement, I think it's rather unusual for violence to start then.

They've been resisting from other countries as well as Palastine as parts of other groups and in some cases military orginizations. The day after Israel was formed it was attacked by it neighbors, that should have been a sign right there.

I was talking about "civilian" uprisings, not an organized assault with a full military.

Yeah, so the idea worked and they'll go prey on less fortified aircraft.

Once again, I think the original reason of why we were discussing this has been lost. The whole point was not to negotiate with hijackers and using the Israeli airline as an example. I'm not sure why you're extending this.

This is true, the US is known for having a slightly xenophobic population. The only thing that pulled them out of it remember were the world wars.

Actually, for WWI, Wilson pretty much dragged the US into the war. He had a bit more "sight" than the rest of the country.

I would hardly call myself a "foreigner" as I'm only Canadian. Not that different from being an American sometimes. Then again . . .

Sorry, I was using "not American" as equal to "foreigner" when rebutting the position of the views here representing all Americans.

He hasn't been doing this with me, even though I'm debating the opposite side from him.

You either haven't gotten to it yet, and maybe you never will...but the thing is, your whole conversation will end with no change in opinions whatsoever. Why argue, when you know you will not convince anyone (and I assure you, you will not convince anyone) no matter how right you think you are? Sorry Ura, that's just the way I see it...and I've read all you had to say: all very well put together...but it's a waste of your time...

Actually, I have been doing it to Ura, just not here. You have been very helpful in providing sources and other information.

And as I have mentioned, one of those links at least HAVE changed my opinion that Israeli has always been the victim. So sorry Duke, Ura has been a lot more helpful and does make a lot of sense, much more than you.

 

[DÛke]

...Ura wrote, and you still think Israel has always been the victim? Wow.

The conversation between you, Ura, and Gizmo is more than pointless. When the conversation is over, you'll see why...and since you believe I haven't made much sense so far, the only sense I'll surely make is how senseless all this political talk is...

I wont disturbt you guys futher. Go on...waste your time...

 

[Spiderman]

No Duke, my opinion before Ura's link was that Israel was always the victim. Thanks to him, I know they instigated one of the wars in the 1960's and were the aggressor.

Wow.

 

[Almindhra]

blah blah blah........

 

[DÛke]

...

Almindhra:

blah blah blah........

Wow. I know this is no 9/11 or anything, but...I agree!

Blah...blah...blah...

 

[Spiderman]

So do I! Blah, blah, blah...

 

[Ura]

I don't think there's much rock-throwing in this "invasion". And I agree that largely, Palestinians are innocent. It's the "bad apples" that's unfortunately bringing it down on the rest of them

There was some rock throwing in the begining, but when the answer to rocks is bullets that action stops really fast. The bad apples as such are the groups such as Hamas, Hezzbolah, and the Islamic Jyhad. Orginizations that are all listed terrorist groups, not the common civilians.

Any word from Palestinian sources?

Well, in Jenin for instance the Israeli's are claiming at least 50 Palastinian deaths, also claiming that they're virtually all fighters/terrorists. While the Palastinians are claiming that the body count in Jenin is in the hundreds because of a massacre the Israeli army commited. As Israel is still blocking outside investigators from the UN and other groups from entering the area it is impossible to get any confirmation. Personally I think its going to be somewhere in the middle.

The whole point of this topic was that there have been numerous suicide bombings since 9/11, yet only the "last two" have triggered an invasion.

Ok, well then since 9/11 there have also been several shootings of Palastinians by Israeli's, assassinations of high ranking offcials on both sides, and lots of threats. At this point its tough to say who fired first, since 9/11. Israel just got sick of the 'you hit me, I hit you back' vise-versa situation and invaded full scale. Its the easiest way for them to try and bring an end to the bombings. Incidentally Israel has had these "invasions plans" available since at least 1991 according to the CIA, so it was only a matter of time before they used them.

Perhaps Gizmo can answer this better, but since Britain had experienced "regular" car bombings, I would think they would be more alert.

People have a tendency to block out what they don't like and have a "don't get involved" attitude with most things that could be harmful to them. Its a psycholigical part of our survival instinct.

They didn't "invade", they were already there. The Arabs didn't like the partitioning. And since they did co-exist "peacefully" before the announcement, I think it's rather unusual for violence to start then.

As you say, they were already there. The two groups did co-exist reletively peacefully before the partitioning. But there are underlying reasons for it. The formost is that before the creation of Israel, the area was controlled by the British empire (1920's) as an anex against the ottomans. Both jewish and arab people in the area had large underground networks for intelligence, arms stockpiling, and when need be, fighters to overthrow the common enemy at the time, the British. The Brits knew trouble was brewing and had been looking for an out for a while but still wanted to have a foothold into the area. This along with the problem of thousands of displaced jews and the still high level of anti-semetism in europe brought up the idea to kill a bunch of birds with one stone. Sooth the jewish rebels in the arab lands by giving them their own country and have a place to ship all the refugees in Europe. This infuriated the arabs in the area because they were being screwed out of their own land by a foreign power and the jews became the new enemy. This situation existed till the 60's or 70's until it finally was to hot and turbulent for Britains taste and they dumped off responsibility for the protection of Israel on the UN (enter the USA.)
One large difference between the British being there and Israel is that the Brits never claimed the land as theirs to keep, they were just occupying it for a while. Israel claims the land as theirs to keep. The violence was always around to a certain level, the enemy is all thats changed.

I was talking about "civilian" uprisings, not an organized assault with a full military.

As you said yourself previously,
"And I agree that largely, Palestinians are innocent. It's the "bad apples" that's unfortunately bringing it down on the rest of them."
These aren't common civilians but terrorist 'bad apple' organizations that are performing the uprising and recruiting the desperate and downtrodden from the youth of the civilian population.

Once again, I think the original reason of why we were discussing this has been lost. The whole point was not to negotiate with hijackers and using the Israeli airline as an example. I'm not sure why you're extending this.

It has been lost. I think it was to compare the old US policy of not fighting the hijackers vrs. a policy of fighting them using the Israeli airline as an active example of the later. Or something like that.

Actually, for WWI, Wilson pretty much dragged the US into the war. He had a bit more "sight" than the rest of the country.

Well then till WWII then the US was largely xenophobic. Now it only is a little bit in certain areas.

Sorry, I was using "not American" as equal to "foreigner" when rebutting the position of the views here representing all Americans.

Fair enough


Duke

You either haven't gotten to it yet, and maybe you never will...but the thing is, your whole conversation will end with no change in opinions whatsoever. Why argue, when you know you will not convince anyone (and I assure you, you will not convince anyone) no matter how right you think you are? Sorry Ura, that's just the way I see it...and I've read all you had to say: all very well put together...but it's a waste of your time...

I'm not really concerned with changing anyones opinion, so much as disscussing it because I find it interesting as to what others have to say about it. I'm kind of boring that way.
But then I also spend my spare time somedays reading documents in the CIA database.

 

[Spiderman]

Originally posted by Ura
Well, in Jenin for instance the Israeli's are claiming at least 50 Palastinian deaths, also claiming that they're virtually all fighters/terrorists. While the Palastinians are claiming that the body count in Jenin is in the hundreds because of a massacre the Israeli army commited. As Israel is still blocking outside investigators from the UN and other groups from entering the area it is impossible to get any confirmation. Personally I think its going to be somewhere in the middle.

Interestingly, I just read a couple of articles where reporters couldn't confirm the Palestinian casualty claims. Also just read an interview with one of the most sought after Palestinian bomb makers who admitted that they had rigged much of Jenin to cause casualties to tanks and infantry with their "mere bombs". And that the whole civilian population knew about it (for their own good of course, and which was the downfall of the plot since some "collaborators" brought it to Israel's attention).

Ok, well then since 9/11 there have also been several shootings of Palastinians by Israeli's, assassinations of high ranking offcials on both sides, and lots of threats. At this point its tough to say who fired first, since 9/11. Israel just got sick of the 'you hit me, I hit you back' vise-versa situation and invaded full scale. Its the easiest way for them to try and bring an end to the bombings. Incidentally Israel has had these "invasions plans" available since at least 1991 according to the CIA, so it was only a matter of time before they used them.

Should be "easy" enough to verify. Someone just has to put a timeline together of all the incidents (which admittingly would take a while to do, so it's not really easy at all).

People have a tendency to block out what they don't like and have a "don't get involved" attitude with most things that could be harmful to them. Its a psycholigical part of our survival instinct.

True, but if it happens "regularly" such as in Israel, common civilians are also on the lookout for "unusual" things. There's a couple of stories where civilians have foiled suicide bombings. Maybe car bombings in Britain were not as regular <shrug>

As you say, they were already there. The two groups did co-exist reletively peacefully before the partitioning. But there are underlying reasons for it. The formost is that before the creation of Israel, the area was controlled by the British empire (1920's) as an anex against the ottomans. Both jewish and arab people in the area had large underground networks for intelligence, arms stockpiling, and when need be, fighters to overthrow the common enemy at the time, the British. The Brits knew trouble was brewing and had been looking for an out for a while but still wanted to have a foothold into the area. This along with the problem of thousands of displaced jews and the still high level of anti-semetism in europe brought up the idea to kill a bunch of birds with one stone. Sooth the jewish rebels in the arab lands by giving them their own country and have a place to ship all the refugees in Europe. This infuriated the arabs in the area because they were being screwed out of their own land by a foreign power and the jews became the new enemy. This situation existed till the 60's or 70's until it finally was to hot and turbulent for Britains taste and they dumped off responsibility for the protection of Israel on the UN (enter the USA.)
One large difference between the British being there and Israel is that the Brits never claimed the land as theirs to keep, they were just occupying it for a while. Israel claims the land as theirs to keep. The violence was always around to a certain level, the enemy is all thats changed.

Interesting points, and with only one sole source for me (and really a summary, at that), I cannot say any more.

 

[Gizmo]

How are you supposed to be alert for carbombs?

Know what a carbomb looks like? It looks like a parked car. Outward appearance is identical. A man takes the car, parks it, and calmly walks off. Anywhere between five minutes or days later the car explodes.

How can you defend against this? Strip search all parked cars?
Stop and search all cars coming into London?
Isolate all people with Irish accents?

You cannot realistically stop either suicide or car bombs. I guess a person with primitive and bulky bombs attached to them is more easily spotted than a car with a relatively small quantity of plastic explosive.


Interesting that once Ura arrives and the conversation turns to sensible discussion of events, Duke leaves. Ally was as mature and sensible as ever.

 

[DÛke]

I think Ura does a better job explaining what I would. Frankly, I don't have much time to write long, provocative posts like Ura...and even if I do, it's clear and obvious that you guys don't like my "style" of writing...so why bother?

Ura is a better informer when it comes to this stuff...so whenever he decides to write about it, I'll just leave, because most of the time, I'm sure he'll do a better job. He does a better job than you even, Gizmo...in my opinion.

 

[Spiderman]

Gizmo: So were people more "on alert" for "suspicious cars" during that period? Change their habits? Or did they occur too "infrequently"?

 

[Gizmo]

What makes a car look suspicious?

Does it wear a balaclava, or squint menacingly from the shadows? Has it got nervous darting eyes?

Dont be stupid. People were actively on the lookout for any discarded bags, which were also used as bomb carriers, but I dont see what exactly constitutes a suspicious car.

 

[Spiderman]

Don't be a jerk. Obviously I don't know or I wouldn't be asking, now would I? If you'd have thought about it, it could mean strangers driving in the neighborhood, a BMW standing out among Escorts, whatever.

Never mind, it's quite obvious you have nothing to say either nor any interest in helping out. Forget it. I sure hope this doesn't extend to any help you might give any Magic players, otherwise it's no wonder there there's a general exodus in the game.

"Don't be stupid", what a riot.

 

[Gizmo]

It`s London city centre for christs sake! 'Strangers driving in the neighbourhood?' Are you insane?

A car bomb looks something like this:
A normal guy drives a normal car. He parks the car normally, gets out normally, and walks away normally. The car blows up.

Spidey, dont know if you`ve noticed - Magic sales are higher than ever. Dont give me that 'exodus from the game' bullcrap. Besides I long since gave up offering advice because people simply dont appreciate it.

Who pissed on your toast this morning, mr grumpy-boots?

 

[theorgg]

I don't want to really stick up for your "holier than thou" tones you've taken in the last few months, but I will tell you this: I have had six friends drop by here for any time from one month to six months(or more, in the case of a few).

I have had five of them tell me this place was really helpful with deck assistance, and four of them named you by name.

Do with that what you will.

Y' never know who you help. That's my though.

 

[Spiderman]

Look Gizmo, I already admitted that I am not familiar with the circumstances of the UK car bombings. Did they occur all in London? Were some out in Ireland? Were all of them the case of someone driving in the car and leaving it, or did they prepare a car that was already there? That's why I didn't make any assumptions, and when I did, I was smart enough (or so I thought) to at least ask the guy who's living there and might either have first-hand knowledge or at least better knowledge about it than me.

What annoys the heck out of me is you making smart remarks like "Don't be stupid" when giving your "replies". It's unneeded and uncalled for, and if you can't be civil when posting then I will just ignore you in the future. Never once have I started a post or reply to you like that, so I would appreciate it if you don't do it to me. Otherwise, go back to netiquette school.

 

[Ura]

Interestingly, I just read a couple of articles where reporters couldn't confirm the Palestinian casualty claims. Also just read an interview with one of the most sought after Palestinian bomb makers who admitted that they had rigged much of Jenin to cause casualties to tanks and infantry with their "mere bombs". And that the whole civilian population knew about it (for their own good of course, and which was the downfall of the plot since some "collaborators" brought it to Israel's attention).

Well, the latest Jenin body count from Israel is 52 confirmed kills, or which they claim 21 are innocent civilians that were killed in "unfortunate circumstance." One perticular 54 year old women was shot 8 times, twice in the head, trying to answer her door for the army. Once again we still have no second party confirmation for any of it as UN investigators are still being blocked out.

Should be "easy" enough to verify. Someone just has to put a timeline together of all the incidents (which admittingly would take a while to do, so it's not really easy at all).

Don't know about you, but this discussion just isn't that important to me to dig through that much research all at once.

True, but if it happens "regularly" such as in Israel, common civilians are also on the lookout for "unusual" things. There's a couple of stories where civilians have foiled suicide bombings.

If an event happens often enough the law of averages will allow for that. Its the same as a civilian foiling a bank robbery or other crime. They noticed something unusual or suspicious behavior from a person and rather then 'not getting involved' they did something that paid off. But as Gizmo was saying, a car with a bomb looks like any other car. Its not like their going to stick a bright red Ferrari in the middle of a group of black sedans. The IRA used common vehicals in common colors. Britain has ALOT of black sedans in it which are commonly used as government vehicals. One more won't stand out in the parking area.

Interesting points, and with only one sole source for me (and really a summary, at that), I cannot say any more.

I'll see if I can find the appropriate links for the articles and reports I was reading at the CIA. Its basically an intermix of British colonial history and the Palastinian mandate after WWII.

I think Ura does a better job explaining what I would. Frankly, I don't have much time to write long, provocative posts like Ura...and even if I do, it's clear and obvious that you guys don't like my "style" of writing...so why bother?
Ura is a better informer when it comes to this stuff...so whenever he decides to write about it, I'll just leave, because most of the time, I'm sure he'll do a better job. He does a better job than you even, Gizmo...in my opinion.

Thanks Duke, thats the nicest thing thats been said about me all week.

Strip search all parked cars?

or squint menacingly from the shadows?

Sorry, these just made me chuckle with the thought of a naked, far sighted, angry automobile stalking the back allys looking for revenge for its virtue, as it forages through a dumpster for partially empty motor oil bottles.


So much for a sensible discussion of events though.

 

[Spiderman]

Originally posted by Ura

Don't know about you, but this discussion just isn't that important to me to dig through that much research all at once.

Nor I.

If an event happens often enough the law of averages will allow for that. Its the same as a civilian foiling a bank robbery or other crime. They noticed something unusual or suspicious behavior from a person and rather then 'not getting involved' they did something that paid off. But as Gizmo was saying, a car with a bomb looks like any other car. Its not like their going to stick a bright red Ferrari in the middle of a group of black sedans. The IRA used common vehicals in common colors. Britain has ALOT of black sedans in it which are commonly used as government vehicals. One more won't stand out in the parking area.

So once again, I think we got sidetracked. I have no idea what the original point of this was

I'll see if I can find the appropriate links for the articles and reports I was reading at the CIA. Its basically an intermix of British colonial history and the Palastinian mandate after WWII.

Don't sweat it. This is pretty much dying down.

 

[Gobo]

man this thread is crap

 

[Thallid Ice Cream Man]

Multani!!! You can come back now. Everyone's mostly shut up and they probably see your point, unless Gizmo has something to add.