Oh, for the love of God!

[Zadok001]

4 maindeck Perishes.

12 maindeck creatures that block Blastoderm and come out on turns 3-5.

6 removal spells that take out River Boa.

And it still can't beat Fires.

WHAT KIND OF SICK JOKE IS THIS??!!?!?!?!

14 playtest games against BASIC Fires, as played by Zvi. 1 game won. 13 games lost. 18 Perishes cast. Dozens of Blastoderms blocked. 8 Bursts Recoiled. 5 Fires Recoiled in response to Bursts.

5 deaths to 2x Shocks. 3 losses to Earthquake. 4 deaths to Burst. 1 death to River Boa. Almost 100 damage dealt by Saproling Bursts. Almost 50 by Blastoderms.

I wasn't a believer. I played Machine Head when Invasion came out. I played with a foil Pyre Zombie. I played black. I lost to Fires. Scott Lesser and I worked together on a deck design called 'Headless Machine' that _should_ beat Fires. It didn't. GVizmo called Machine Head my deck. I built the deck I'm now describing, purely to beat Fires into the ground. 1-13. I wasn't a believer.

I thought Black could still win.

I'm a believer now. Black sucks. It really does. It just CAN'T beat Fires.

Please, someone, ANYONE, prove me wrong. Make me a deck that beats Fires with Black as the main color. PLEASE!!!

 

[Duel]

Okay, man. You want it?

Nether-blow:
3 Nether spirit
4 Cremate
3 Haunted crossroads
2 Mageta, the lion
4 Seal of cleansing
2 Wrath of god
2 Rout
4 Parallax Wave
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Chimeric Idol
1 Blinding angel
1 Ivory Mask
1 Jayemdae Tome
1 Primal clay
4 Dark rituals
11 Swamps
11 Plains

Notice:
3 Nether spirits stop derms.
1 primal clay w/ 4 enlightened tutors stop derms (Stop Laughing!)
4 wrath effects stop derm/boa
2 Mageta's stop derm/boa
1 Blinding angel just stops fires in general
4 seal of cleansings w/ 4 enlightened tutors stop burst
4 parallax waves w/ 4 enlightened tutors stop burst

The Clay is a great idea I got from Evan (Zadok knows him) who simply doesn't use it too well. once derm dies, you can wave it out, and when it comes back, attack.

Crossroads and cremate will keep your graveyard clear. Spirits should fly through your wrath-ish stuff for a win.

 

[Gizmo]

Black as the main color?
Wrath
Mageta
Seal
E.Tutor
Wave

 

[Rando]

All I can sugest is 4 Tsabo's Decree and 4 dark ritual to make sure you can cast the expensive thing early. Since it's an istant, you can clear the board of Sap. tokens when they attack, and any other tokens they make afterward won't be so brutish.

How about all black, with blue spashed for instant bounce such as Recoil and Boomerang. Also, Addle, Unmask and Coercion may help you knock the burst out of thier hands early. Beyond that, the only other thing I can suggest is Chilling Apperition and Urborg Skeleton for regenerating blockers.

To be honest, though, I tried a deck such as this and played about 20 games against fires, winning well less then half.

Creatures (12)
4 Thrashing Wumpus
4 Chilling Apperition
4 Chemeric Idol

Spells (20)
4 Tsabo's Decree
4 Recoil
2 Hoodwink
4 Addle
4 Terror
2 Vampiric Tutor

Mana Sources (28)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Underground River
4 Salt Marsh
2 Dust Bowl
14 Swamps
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[John`O]

Have you tried beatdown instead of control?
Using cheap cards instead of expensive ones?
The idea of trying to deal with their threats rather
than making your own sounds wrong,
maybe you should be killing mana elves and serving ?

e.g.
18 Swamp
4 Rishadan Port
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cursed Flesh
4 Vendetta
4 Snuff Out
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sinister Strength
4 Silent Assassin
4 Spineless Thug
4 Phyrexian Scuta
2 Hidden Horror


cards to try

Chimeric Idol
Cateran Persuader
Rampart Crawler
Rathi Intimidator
Rain of Tears
Despoil
Nakaya Shade
Plague Spitter


In my quick playtest this was 4-4 vs fires
(Zvi's version from NY top 8)
but I think it got a bit lucky and should be more like 40%
but with a couple of improvements I can imagine some
sort of aggressive black winning >50%.
Maybe -Flesh -Assassin +Spitter +Tears
would be better?


John

 

[Gizmo]

HEY!
How`d John get to be a coach?
Did he have to take some sort of coaching exam?

 

[phantmjokr]

I told you black was down.

White is up followed by green(descending) and blue(is it going down with the block or stable? It gains from the slower environment but all keep saying the counters in Invasion block are bad). Red is on the rise...but black is down....

Will

 

[Landkiller]

Well, here's something. Off the top of the head. No clue if it's okay. Enough Enchantment kill. Plus Troubled Healer!

B/R/W/g

4 Sinister Strength
4 Phyrexian Scuta
4 Dark Ritual

4 Blazing Specter

4 Maniacal Rage
4 Kris Mage
4 Shock

4 Wax/Wane
4 Aura Blast
2 Troubled Healer

2 Brushland
4 Sulphorous Springs
1 City of Brass
4 Rith's Lair
6 Swamp
4 Mountain
1 Plains

 

[Istanbul]

4x Addle
2x Vampiric Tutor
3x Jester's Cap
4x Dark Ritual

3x Vendetta
3x Terror
4x Dry Spell (TRUST me)

4x Urborg Skeleton
4x Vodalian Zombie
3x Thrashing Wumpus
3x Rathi Assassin
2x Ascendant Evincar

15x Swamp
3x Island
3x Underground River

Addle gets green cards out of their hand (Blasty, Bursty, etc.).
Jester's Cap is the best defense against Saproling Burst...they can't cast it if it's not in their deck.
Vendetta is MADE for Bird-squishing...so is Dry Spell, and you can play Dry Spell on turn 2-3 if they overcommit to mana acceleration.
If anything makes it past, Urborg Skeleton can block Blastoderm until the cows come home, as can Vodalian Zombies. Thrashing Wumpus cleans house, Rathi Assassin is Royal Assassin against Fires, and Ascendant Evincar can keep your problems small.

Just an idea...anti-Fires.

 

[Gizmo]

Cap isn`t legal.
Black sucks, get over it. No deck with black in is going to be much good until Burst and Derm rotate out.

 

[Captain Caveman]

I doubt if this will beat Fires and its been done but maybe its worth another try.

More Nether-go
11 Island
4 Underground River
4 Salt Marsh
4 Swamp

3 Nether Spirit
2 Thrashing Wumpus
1 Air Elemental


4 Snuff Out
4 Cremate................(card drawing + helps Spirit)
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell..........(could be prohibit, Power sink or Foil)
4 Undermine
2 Terror.....(pretty good vs everything except Idol & `Derm)
3 Recoil
3 Vampiric Tutor.....(to get Silver Bullets)
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Massacre
1 Dominate(random slot, could use Urza's Guilt vs other stuff)

Btw, can Urza's Guilt be broken?

Caveman

 

[Lotus Mox]

Urza's Guilt + 3xMegrim = 22 dmg to your opponent
I don't know if this is really good though.

To the Fires problem:
In My testing of my R/G LD deck (see my other thread) vs. Fires, my deck has won 66,7% of all games , OK OK I played just 3 games so that percentage is not really relevant.
I still feel mana denial should work pretty good vs. Fires because of their top-heavy mana curve, but then again they have lots of mana acceleration, so what do I know.

 

[Istanbul]

Originally posted by Gizmo
Cap isn`t legal.
Black sucks, get over it. No deck with black in is going to be much good until Burst and Derm rotate out.

It's PRECISELY that kind of thinking that keeps black in the background. Sorry, I don't give in that easy.
I thought Cap was in 6th...oh well. Lobotomy, then. You might get it before they can cast it.

 

[Thallid Ice Cream Man]

Has anyone ever tried Hoodwinking a burst? Anyone? It's blue but cheaper than Recoil and that could make a difference...

Maybe there isn't Jester's Cap, but there is Grinning Totem.

We might want to wait for 7th Edition...

 

[Zadok001]

I have high hopes for 7th.

/begin{Subliminal Message}
You WILL reprint Diabolic Edict...
/end{Subliminal Message}

 

[DÛke]

...

Cap isn`t legal.
Black sucks, get over it. No deck with black in is going to be much good until Burst and Derm rotate out.

-Gizmo

What the hell is that supposed to mean? I'm sorry, but if you are gonna think that way, Gizmo and anyone else, you are NOT going to find any deck that beats any other, simply because of your negative approach. How do you expect to build a deck when you DON'T believe you could build the deck in the first place...

...I CAN BET YOU I could build a Black/color deck that could CRUSH Fires...the only thing is, there MIGHT be a problem where Fires is the ONLY deck it would beat...MAYBE...

Fires is strong, yes...but it requires different approach to beat...it's not a normal deck, since it practically "breaks the rules" by bringin' too much in so little time. Note that if you could survive the cirtical points of the massacre, you could easily find a way to overwhelm the opponent yourself. Blastoderm fades away, and so does Saproling Burst. What else is in that dang deck? Small little creatures...and maybe a couple of big ones...

Coud someone give me an ACTUAL decklist?

Just by lookin' at it, I will be able to tell you what you need, and what you don't...

...besides, have you seen all the feeble attempts at defeating it? Yeah...they're B/U, B/R...and like that...well, how about B/W? B/G? Oh, is it not in the "rule booklet"? Sorry, but I'll crush Fires...YOU, could watch me do it...ok?

 

[Zadok001]

The standard Fires decklist:

10 Forest
5 Mountain
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Chimeric Idol
4 Fires of Yavimaya
4 Blastoderm
4 Saproling Burst
4 Assault
4 Karplusan Forest
4 Rishadan Port
3 Jade Leech
3 Two-Headed Dragon
2 Dust Bowl
1 Earthquake

Meet your nemesis. I've built enough Black decks to sink a ship in the last four months - And not a single one of 'em can beat Fires consistantly. The best I ever got was a 50-50 split. (Bad Fires players notwithstanding.) Well, that's not including one I made that beat Fires 60-40, and lost to EVERY other deck. (See that list of hosers in the first post? Now consider a deck made ENTIRELY out of Fires hosers. That's my deck.)

Black does suck, regardless of attitude, as far as Fires is concerned. It just can't win.

 

[Gizmo]

I`ll take you up on that Dukey, I`ll bet you that you can`t build a deck which has 60%+ black spells and gets a better than 70% record against Fires.

Go to it.
Prove me wrong.

 

[DÛke]

...Zadok, like you said, Black MAY suck against Fires, but not against anything else. Within me, I believe that a deck with Black as the main color could beat Fires. We just need a bit of eccentricity, that is all.

I'm not big on knowledge about Fires, but...what turn does it usually win on? By looking at it, I believe that 4-6 may sound right, but I'm not sure.

...and, may I see the deck you build that fails to destroy Fires while having all those Green hosers, please?

Gizmo, bet accepted...I just need some time...

...one of us will go down...

 

[Duel]

DUke, I warn you, this is harder than it looks. I took dave up on his challenge, and lost miserably. The only time I won was when I used 80% blue or white cards. Black has no enchantment removal.

Maybe it is possible, though. Anyone got a mercernary deck?