Deck Construction

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cbearsbro

Guest
Reading the decks others have put together, I notice there's not a whole lot of BIG guys in any of them. CC seems to stop around 5 in general. Is that a "norm"? I know there are countless articles and opinions about how to build THE deck. But I wanted to get some "casual"/practical feedback.

I'm attempting to put together my first deck and I was curious. There are some 6cc creatures and of course an Avatar (usually 8 if ya can't meet the lowering criteria. Woe and Might seem to be the easiest to meet if you play your creatures right) that I'd like to use. My idea was to use low cost spells to defend myself until I could get them out. I will, of course put in some lower cost creatures and some mana accelerators. But what I had in mind are mostly 4-5cc and a few HEAVY hitter creatures. Probably around 22-24 lands to support them.

Practical or impractical?

Other "norm" question. There isn't a MAXIMUM amount of cards allowed in a deck. I think 40 is minimum. But practically speaking what's the highest amount of cards in a deck you could play with a reasonable chance of getting what you need? 60 seems to be an arbitrary number. I'm thinking anything more than 70 would probably be too much for a single game.

Opinions or comments?
 
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Thallid Ice Cream Man

Guest
In response to your first query, it appears that most people use cards that are cheap in terms of mana cost as opposed to expensive cards and methods of getting them out quickly because the environment for which most of their decks are designed (Type II, although I could be wrong) is dominated by either control or a strategy using mostly small, fast creatures. Most of the offensive decks pack some removal, and the control decks all definitely do. The main problem, then, with a deck that uses mana producing creatures/spells and big creatures later is that in the early game it isn't fast enough, and in the late game it isn't good enough at establishing control. Even if there are spells to defend against small creatures, most of those creatures can attack en masse later in the game. Meanwhile, playing such a deck against control is putting all your eggs in one basket because unless you get a steady supply of big creatures, they can just destroy them all and slowly go for your throat.

There are ways, however, of preventing some of these problems from happening by tailoring your deck to beat whatever is popular in your area. Fool around with any deck you make to determine what does or does not work.

In response to your second question, I believe if my memory serves me that the minimum card count was raised to 60 as of 6th Ed. The maximum size really just depends on the deck. If you are trying to build a deck to defend against everything you might want a large number of cards so that your library doesn't get milled. This is just an example. However, for most intents and purposes almost no one goes above 80. Some people stick exactly to 60, but I occasionally go up to 62 (don't yell at me about ratios, I don't care for that stuff). It is also a matter of personal preference.

Of course, once Gizmo replies all of this advice will be a waste of bandwidth....
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
I think the reason why there aren't a lot of higher casting spells above 5cc is because of a term called the "mana curve", in which the goal is to try to do something every turn (use your mana). Since it takes around 5 turns before you can cast a 5cc spell, you don't want a lot of those in your hand to start out with; otherwise, you're just sitting there while your opponent is doing stuff and will most likely will you by then (depending on how their deck is). Of course, if you have a strategy like Reanimation or Sneak Attack, you can get away with higher casting creatures.

60 cards is the minimum for CONSTRUCTED decks, 40 is the minimum for Sealed and Draft decks. Since that is the minimum, usually you don't want to go over because mathematically speaking, you have less chances of drawing a certain card when you have more than 60 cards. I'm sure there's been tons of articles done on the probability; you can do a search on the Dojo, at the least or someone here might give you a link. :)
 
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Zadok001

Guest
Jamie Wakefield (an old-school Magic writer, absolutely brilliant) was fairly well-known for his process of using decks with 36 spells and 26 land - Adding to 62 cards. That made him draw _much_ more mana than your average player, and therefore gave him somewhat improved chances of 'beating luck,' but that's about as far as any high-level player has pushed the limits of 60 cards. High card-count decks simply wreck your ability to draw consistantly.

That, of course, doesn't stop casuals. I had a 120 card deck called Big.dec a year or so ago.
 
I

Istanbul

Guest
6-CC spells and higher are also dangerous because if you draw them in your opening hand, they're going to be sitting there for a good long while, while you wait for enough mana to cast them. This leaves you open to all manner of hand disruption, tempo loss, etc. Add to that the fact that your Force of Nature is nothing in the face of my Terror, and we come to the inescapable conclusion that, barring something truly game-breaking, you're not likely to see any 6+-CC spells in any serious deck.

Heck, my You Can't Do That In Type II deck pushes the envelope with two or three 5-CC spells. :)
 
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theorgg

Guest
120 cards=big? What are you on? I rutinly bulild decks that are over two hundred cards!1

I've got a merfolk deck that's nearing three hundred, and bugger is now over four hundred cards!

Granted, they almost never win, but who cares? they're fun to play!
 
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cbearsbro

Guest
Thanks for the feedback. :D

IF I were a "pro" I'd probably believe in the probabality thing and stick strickly with the 60 card limit. But I'm nowhere near that level, so NYAH ;)

I dunno. Somehow I feel like "breaking" the rules. 68.... good number. Birth year... Yeah, I like it :)

I don't really think I should use 4 of everything. I tend to use 2-3 of a creature at most. I know repetition is great for good draws. But I figure if I can get similiar cards out with slight variations on effects/abilities, might help me be little more versatile. Course that'll probably backfire on me. But hey, I'm in it for the fun of it :)

I built a b/r/g deck. Lot of low cost spells that deal damage, beef up my smaller guys, or accelerate my mana. General idea is to stall long enough to get one of the bigger creatures out. Mostly 4 cc. Couple of higher ones. Not sure how it'll work yet. I'll post it if it actually works half-way decent and get some advice on how to make it better.
 
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cbearsbro

Guest
Originally posted by theorgg
120 cards=big? What are you on? I rutinly bulild decks that are over two hundred cards!1

I've got a merfolk deck that's nearing three hundred, and bugger is now over four hundred cards!

Granted, they almost never win, but who cares? they're fun to play!
Dang, hate to see that library on the table or in the graveyard :)
 
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Hetemti

Guest
I generally work a formula

25 lands
60-62 total cards.
Sets of:
1-Lone rares that do fun things, but aren't needed. (Worship's fun.)
2-Utility that's sometimes useless, like Banish and Tap critters.
3-Main usage cards, ie, the meat-and-potatoes of the deck.
4(+)-Staples, like bolts and counterspells.

Unfortunatly, I like 6cc stuff. I've got 5 dragons in one deck, 4 in another, my two decks with blue have 3 Moti's in one, and 2 Motis and 2 Morphlings (Which is sometimes more than 6 to cast safely) in the other.

Why? Most of my early stuff is control and denial. That, and my friends don't play awesome decks either, so we get to fiddle with crappy fun cards.
 
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Gizmo

Guest
Personally I found my deckszie coming down naturally as I got more competitive.

My first tournament deck was 70 cards (but only 3 Hyppies because I didn`t think they were so good).
The I got to about 65, briefly before dropping to refusing to play more than 63.

Now I play 60, and occasionally 61 but only in a control deck with lots of card manipulation.
 
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cbearsbro

Guest
Originally posted by Hetemti
I generally work a formula

25 lands
60-62 total cards.
Sets of:
1-Lone rares that do fun things, but aren't needed. (Worship's fun.)
2-Utility that's sometimes useless, like Banish and Tap critters.
3-Main usage cards, ie, the meat-and-potatoes of the deck.
4(+)-Staples, like bolts and counterspells.

Unfortunatly, I like 6cc stuff. I've got 5 dragons in one deck, 4 in another, my two decks with blue have 3 Moti's in one, and 2 Motis and 2 Morphlings (Which is sometimes more than 6 to cast safely) in the other.

Why? Most of my early stuff is control and denial. That, and my friends don't play awesome decks either, so we get to fiddle with crappy fun cards.
Same here. I like messing with the BIG creatures. Dragons and Avatars are fun! :D I don't do em to extremes for one deck. But they're out there. Why not use em :) Part of the fun is seeing if you CAN get em out :)

Nice formula btw. I tend to use 1 of a really big guys in case I can get them out to reek havoc. Have maybe 2 of those in the deck. Rest are in 2s. I want to see which ones actually do me good before making changes. ;)

24 lands is what I'm experimenting with in the one deck now. I have an artifact that produces mana dual mana.
 
A

arhar

Guest
Generally, here's some advice on how to make semi-efficient big creature decks:

First, go Green or Black.

If Green, use a LOT of mana accelerators like various Elves, Vine Trellis, Wall of Roots, etc, etc. Also, cards like Natural Order or Pattern of Rebirth are GOOD!

Black: Use Dark Rituals for acceleration, and discard/reanimation cards for tricks. Choose to draw, don't play a land, discard a Spirit of the Night. Next turn: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Animate Dead, bring out the Spirit, slap Unholy Strength on him, serve :) Or you could use Feral Shadow, Urborg Panther, and Breathstealer to bring the aforementioned Spirit out too :)

To conclude, the big creature decks work best in Multiplayer!!!!

..... I'll use my Timmy, the Power Gamer to bring out Big Furry Monster (yes, that DOES work)...... Oh you have a Pandemonium out? Take 99!
 
O

olwen

Guest
has protection from black.

Animate Dead would fall off it when the Spirit is in play, putting it back into the graveyard.

If it were in play, you can't target it with the Unholy Strength also :D

Secret Force really works well, it's fun to play and quite competitive. The classic deck has 62 cards and 26 lands.
 
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cbearsbro

Guest
Originally posted by olwen
has protection from black.

Animate Dead would fall off it when the Spirit is in play, putting it back into the graveyard.

If it were in play, you can't target it with the Unholy Strength also :D

Secret Force really works well, it's fun to play and quite competitive. The classic deck has 62 cards and 26 lands.
What's secret force? BTW anyone know where I can find a list of these deck types people keep talking about (sligh, stompy [kinda know that one], etc..] Thanks :)
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Secret Force was Jamie Wakefield's (a past mostly well-regarded writer for The Dojo) signature deck. It used Natural Order to get out a Verdant Force for beats.

Go to www.thedojo.com and do a search on the deck list name (or try the CPA search function on the main page).
 
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cbearsbro

Guest
Originally posted by Spiderman
Secret Force was Jamie Wakefield's (a past mostly well-regarded writer for The Dojo) signature deck. It used Natural Order to get out a Verdant Force for beats.

Go to www.thedojo.com and do a search on the deck list name (or try the CPA search function on the main page).
Thanks :)
 
A

arhar

Guest
I am now officially the biggest retard in the CPA!

Thank you for your comments.

Just change Spirit of the Night to any other Big Black Creature in my above post and forget about my existence.
 
B

Baskil

Guest
Or, Ritual, Funeral Charm (targeting me) discard Spirit of the Night, Exhume, serve.
 
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thrasykles

Guest
ok. 60 seems to be the magic number for duel decks. but what about games with more than to players, that tend to last longer do you guys stick to 60/62 cards under such circumstances?
i'd be interested to hear your experiences with such formats. my decks include usually between 72 and 84 cards cause i found the smaller decks are often too predictable in complicated games. but on the other hand, the decks with around eighty cards suffer quiet often from too less or too much mana.
i couldn't actually settle the opposing needs of versatility/fun (=many different cards, i seldom include more than three of the same) and reliability/boredom (=few cards, four of each). i really want my decks to be fun to play, but loosing constantly actually diminishes the fun.
is the only reason i DON'T loose constantly that my millstone deck tought my playgroup that it's wiser to use bigger decks?
 
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