The Future Of Tech!

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Zadok001

Guest
Everyone remembers Hunted Wumpus, right?

Now, tell me, isn't that thing _some_ good against Fires? Think about it. First of all, it costs the same amount as a 'Derm, sans one green mana for colorless. It's a 6/6. So it doesn't just BLOCK 'Derm, it KILLS 'Derm. Yes, it has a drawback - But that's not as big a deal as it looks againts Fires right now. They can drop a 'Derm, which the Wumpus pounds into the dirt. Or... Uh... They can drop a Birds of Paradise? :)

Dragons, you say? Well, with a Spidersilk Armor, the Wumpus blocks and kills both major Fires Dragons, and doesn't even die to Rith!

What else turns Fires black and blue? Fog is pretty strong, I hear. How about 20 Fogs? Dawnstrider. :)

Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to present the preliminary build of 4-Color-Green, a deck designed to hand Rebels and Fires their heads on a platter, while putting up a fair fight against Counter-Rebels and U/W control.

(I'll back up these card choices in a minute...)

4-Color-Green, Version Beta 1.0
David Zadok Stroud

Secondary Mana Sources (12)
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Llanowar Else
3x Vine Trellis
1x Utopia Tree

Setting Up The Board (17)
4x Hunted Wumpus
4x Spidersilk Armor
4x River Boa
4x Dawnstrider
1x Kavu Chameleon

Enhancement And Tricks (12)
3x Armadillo Cloak
3x Wax/Wane
3x Urza's Rage
3x Tsabo's Decree

Land (19)
3x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
1x Plains
3x Brushland
4x City of Brass
4x Rishadan Port
2x Karplusan Forest

Obviously, this is a very basic build of the deck. I've only playtested the Rebels and Fires matchups, both of which were completely dominated by this deck. (5-1 against Fires, 6-0 against Rebels, Dojo DTBs. One man testing, so not very reliable results.)

Card choices:

Utopia Tree vs. Vine Trellis: I concluded that four Birds, four Cities, and the multi-lands weren't going to help me as much as I'd like for casting all of my off-color spells, so I took the risk of tossing in a Utopia Tree in the place of a Trellis. It hasn't had a signifigant impact in any way as of now, neither helping nor hurting.

River Boa: It's almost always a good idea to block Blastoderm. Boa does a great job of that. It helps defend the fort should a Burst go off without protection, too, though it's not too effective in that case. It's also one of the three major Cloak targets in the deck. An all-round solid creature with a low mana cost. With 31 mana sources, I shouldn't often be pushed for mana, but it's good to have low casting cost creatures for defense anyways.

Dawnstrider: Absolutely amazing, the Striders can do some REALLY nice stuff against almost any deck. Modern Fires rarely run more than four removal spells, almost always Shocks/Assaults, so these are really pretty survivable. The mere threat of having one in play can keep someone from attacking you, and they only cost two mana. They also have an interesting effect against Parallax Wave, forcing more counters to be removed if someone actually wants to ATTACK with his creatures. The Spidersilk aggravate this same problem, and put an enormous stress on Rebel decks to draw into multiple Waves and dodge the Wanes.

Kavu Chameleon: I really like having one of these maindeck, to get around such major troubles as Story Circle without the need for a Wane. He's a costly beast, but very, very good, and he tops out the deck's mana curve.

Armadillo Cloak: More maindeck anti-Fires tech. Dropping a Cloak on a Boa is deadly against many, many decks. Fires just can't deal with a Cloaked creature with more than 2 toughness. As a result, a Cloaked Wumpus is a scoop almost every time. There's just no way to stop the thing. The Cloak commonly goes on the Wumpus, the Boa, or the Birds. The Birds are a last resort to dodge blockers, but they work fairly well.

Urza's Rage: I chose this particular burn spell for several reasons. First, Shock doesn't cut it in a quasi-control deck with this much mana. The cost of the Rage is rarely a problem, and it kills Sivvi and almost any other Rebel that sees play. The Kicker is irrelevant, but I suppose it could come up after enough time has passed. Don't count on it, though.

Tsabo's Decree: Anti-Rebels tech of the day. This is also an excellent removal spell for the ever-frustrating Blinding Angel, even at 6 mana. Most control decks, when faced with Wumpuses and Boas, must play down an Angel ASAP, around 5th turn. That taps them out, leaving an opening for the Decree. It also absolutely WRECKS Rebels. It puts them almost totally into Topdeck mode, and that's not good for them at all.

Conclusion:

This deck BEATS Fires. It also BEATS Rebels. I can see it having serious difficulties against U/W Control, but a morph into a more Fires-like deck after sideboarding would give it a solid chance, and it does have enough threats to drop pressure and just win off that, in theory. Again, Beta 1 build. :) Anyone tried this type of deck before? What were your results?
 
P

Purple_jester

Guest
I suppose that the lifegain produced by the Cloak outweighs the effects of your Cities, tapped as they will probably become by your own opponent's Rishadan Port. Have you tested this against decks with Port? Tapping a City can be really annoying.

Heroes Reunion the in SB perhaps... Nah. Too iffy. Perish shouldn't be much of a problem, with Black being described as the worst color in the current T2.

I can anticipate a LOT of problems against U/W Control. Of course, the instant solution would be Armageddon. What do you think?
 
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Gizmo

Guest
Spidersilk Armour?
You`ll have to run that one past me again.

I think there is a little too much filler and little too thin a slice of beef. Basically if this deck gets a Wumpus killed it has nothing else planned. Right?
I`d drop 4 Trellis/Tree, 2 Dawnstrider (if not all four - Fires does tend run a heaping heplin of burn so I`m fairly sure Blinding Angel is more sensible), and the 4 SpiderSilk Armour.

In return I`d have a halfway-sensible mana base of 23 land and four Chimeric Idol. Tsabo`s Decree is good, but I think it`s a little too much of a dedicated anti-Rebels card to warrant maindecking.

4 Birds
4 Elves
4 Boa
3 Idol
3 Uktabi Orangutan (Idols are EVERYWHERE)
4 Hunted Wumpus
3 Blinding Angel
(25)

4 Seal Of Fire
3 Wax/Wane
3 Armadillo Cloak
3 Urza`s Rage
(13)

3 City Of Brass
2 Rishadan Port
4 Brushland
4 Karplusan Forest
1 Mountain
3 Plains
5 Forest
(22)

G mana = 16 (supporting 25 spells, none GG)
W mana = 10 (supporting 9 spells, 3 WW)
R mana = 8 (supporting 7 spells, none RR)
* All counts assume BoPs have a life expectancy of 5 milliseconds.

A little more reach-over-and-break-your-card disruption, and a little less sit-behind-my-6/7 fatty defensiveness. Fires will recover and outdraw you unless you beat them down. This deck could do that I think.
 
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Zadok001

Guest
Re: PJ

The Ports were annoying, yes. :) I never died to it, but it was REALLY close sometimes. Armors reversed the course often enough, but they aren't perfect. I usually hold Cities unless I need the mana, they make good Dawnstrider fodder. And 'Geddons are sideboard fodder. Though, since they come in against U/W, they may get replaced by Kavu...

Re: Gizmo

The logic behind the Armors is really pretty simple. First and foremost, I need a way to stop Dragons. That's not happenin' in base green unless I use an off-color card. I could use Dragons of my own, I suppose.

Secondarily, and possibly more importantly depending on the matchup, is that my deck looks like Fires. No, I don't mean it acts like Fires. It LOOKS like Fires. I have four Elves and four Birds. Ya' know what Fires likes to do to Elves and Birds?

Simoon.

Simoon is some bad for me, between Boas, Elves, and Birds. Obviously, it's a sideboard card, but it HURTS. Bad. Perhaps I could move some of the Armors to the 'board, but for the sole purpose of not liking Dragons at ALL, I'd like to keep 1 or 2 maindeck. (They also have an interesting impact on Rebels, since it makes my lower toughness creatures slightly harder to bust through. Not a huge impact, though.)

- 2 Spidersilk Armor to start.

I do like the Angels. I was wondering what the heck I was gonna do with four of the things staring at me in my binder. :)

Regarding the Dawnstriders...

I think we're looking at two different metagames on this one. I haven't _seen_ a Fires deck with more than four or five burn spells, usually just four. I've seen several with none whatsoever! The deck I testing against was a varient of Zvi's version for PT Chicago, sans Dragons. (Check the Type 2 Dojo DTBs, that's the one. :) ) Getting the 'Strider burned is certainly a possibility, but they're enough of a threat to _force_ that burn. Giving the other guy options is a Bad Thing(tm), therefore, I run 'Striders. They're really quite a bit better than they look, and, again, I'm trying to beat the LIFE out of Rebels and Fires in one fell swoop.

The Trellises, I suppose, are better dropped for land, now that I think about it. :) Kinda silly to be running 4 toughness creatures to stop Blastoderms...

As for contingency plans, to be honest, the Wumpus is not really the focus. It was the starting point. Wumpus is good against Fires. "Hey, let's see if I can beat Fires with Wumpus!" It _is_ the biggest creature, and my main offensive force. But it's not the focus of the deck. If the Wumpus dies, well, I can stall 'til the end of the world, but Boas and Cloaks form a secondary offense. (Furthermore, I'm playing this deck in a world I'm considering to be totally without Black decks. So burn and Wrath is the only reliable way to kill the Wumpus. Don't look at this deck as something that exists in the same universe as Black, except for the puposes of the Decrees. One of which I'm dropping, btw.)

In essence, this is a _completely_ specialized deck. It beats Fires. And it beats Rebels. :) It ain't gonna be anything else.

Changes:

-2 Spidersilk Armor
-3 Vine Trellis
-1 Utopia Tree
-1 Tsabo's Decree
+3 Blinding Angel
+1 Brushland
+2 Plains
+1 Forest
 
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Duel

Guest
Remind me again, what else is there?


Anyways, I like the striders, they make life hard on people who can't topdeck.

Oh, and one thing, you do NOT want to play a wumpus and hear these two words "Jhovall queen"
Almost as bad is the single word "Mageta"

Those may provide trouble, no?
 
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Gizmo

Guest
Are there that many Dragons around? I thought there were one or two in the Fires decks, but no more after that.

I would say, though, that if the plan is to hide behind Dawnstrider then you would need some form of drawing ability (or Squee) or you will simply Spellshaper-lock yourself into a corner. Okay, you get Dawnstrider out on 2 cards in hand - without any mass removal you are now basically only able to cast one more spell in the entire game. I hope that spell is going to win the game.

Simoon? It`s not much of a threat really, the decklist I have is designed to run without Elves and Birds because 60% of decks kill them the second they come out. And the Boas regnerate. If you ever have a Boa in play and no G to regenerate it, then it deserves to die.
After SB vs Fires it`s really all about who gets the first Simoon off, except that it isn`t because this deck can play in a more controlling manner than Fires can and so should be able to win comfortably. In the Fires/This matchup it`s likely that after SB the match will be really cagey but won by your Armadillo Cloaks and Orangutans (I heartily recommend Orangutans). Personally I would try to absorb the damage Simoon might do by runnin more land. Land is better than mana creatures until you are playing 22-24 of it.

Your best anti-Dragon answer is probably to avoid them drawing it, but I don`t think the answers you put forward are that good. I would be not so scared by Dragons as they aren`t a huge part of the metagame - yes they hurt, but you lose more games by building a deck to beat them than you win.
 
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arhar

Guest
Ya need something to stop the Ports from tapping the Cities?
How about Tsabo's Web? ;)
 
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Zadok001

Guest
Re: Duel

Why not? I've got a Wumpus, which blocks the Queen and lives. And with one other blocker, blocks the Queen and KILLS.

Re: arhar

I'm considering dropping my Ports. If I do, Tsabo's Web would make a fairly strong addition, since it also stops Dust Bowl (argg...), and lets me dig a bit deeper...

Re: Gizmo

(Two Dragons maindeck in both major Fires archetypes, Zvi runs two Two-Headers, and two Rith in the decks that run white for Aura Mutation.)

The thing to remember about the 'Strider is again, that I play against Fires. In other words, I see lots of Blastoderms and Saproling Bursts. So really, having two cards in have an a 'Strider out means I can only cast one spell for the next two-three turns, assuming I need to Fog. The biggest threats in Fires go away if you leave them alone long enough.

I question the 60%. I've pulled all black decks from my playtest roster. Again, as far as this deck is concerned, black is not a color. :) It may be a dumb way to playtest, but I'm out of other options.

Reducing the numbers like that, there are few decks that even CAN kill my Birds and Elves except Fires. The Spidersilks can, perhaps, be moved to the sideboard, but facing down Simoons really does wreck this deck. Even with plentiful land on the table, it removes several chump blockers, and perhaps more importantly, my sources of painless mana. The decklist you have is particularly vulnerable to Simoon, since it runs only 9 ways to produce colored mana without taking damage.

You are correct to some extent, however. Building a deck to beat Dragons may cause me to lose to other things. (I _DO_ like being able to block the Sky Marshalls, though, which get searched out WAY too often for my taste...)

The Orangutans would make good additions to the deck, though. Idols are usually better blocked than Monkeyed, but I suppose it's one more way to remove it.

I already have 23 land, so that shouldn't be an issue (totalling 31 mana sources).
 
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Duel

Guest
how about mageta or wrath effects. They seem, uh, REALLY GOOD against your deck, no?
 
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Zadok001

Guest
Yah, they are. Like, Game Over Bad Things(tm). If this deck has a weakness in my fictional No Black metagame, it's U/W control. The Boas are helpful, but not game-ending. That's another good reason to use Idols myself, but I think they're better suited to the sideboard. Watching an Angel drop off a Wumpus is pretty uncool too. :)
 
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Istanbul

Guest
Ummm...about those Dragons...

Have you ever considered Arresting them? Arrest is way strong...shuts up spellshapers, dragons, and many nasty beasts that you don't want coming your way.
 
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Duel

Guest
Arrest is, IMHO, directy worse than Afterlife, reprisal, or last breath. the last 2 suffer from being specific, but last breath hits angel, boa, and most utility creatures, and Reprisal hits all the beating sticks but derm.....

I used arrest, the problem was it doesn't help, especially when you do an all out attack, because they're rith is arrested, and at th end of your turn they Wane the arrest.... that's some bad....
 
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Bladefall

Guest
The only thing that really poses a threat is counter decks. If they counter wumpus, strider, all your beef, whats left? You need some type of protection. My suggestion is uping the Chameleon count to 4. Or at least SB 3. Everything else has been mentioned..
 
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Duel

Guest
Yeah, I'd use chameleons sideboarded to fix u/w control. As well as idols. And maybe fleetwood panther, when it comes out.
 
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Neil Rigby

Guest
The secret to beating blue is very simple - 1) Don`t play with spells he can let hit play, and 2) Don`t let him Wrath two creatures at once. That`s all. Currently you have too many spells U/W can ignore (Armour, Striders) if you can fill those slots with more useful spells then you will find the U/EW matchup rapidly swings your way. I`ve great experience of U/W decks and I know full well that all you need is a few good spells and a careful player to cause it fits.

Topple is kind of good, BTW - drops Dragons and Nether Spirits and is generally good in the field, although probably not if Hunted Wumpus is flying around on your side of the table.

What did Afterlife do wrong?
 
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Zadok001

Guest
Yah, I know U/W sucks... :)

I've got nuthin' if they Wrath my major threats, and my major threats aren't very numerous. Needless to say, I ain't winning if my opponent is casting Fact or Fiction off two Islands and two Plains at the end of my turn. I do have a few threats, but not enough. The other 3 Chameleons and DEFINATELY sideboard. No questions asked.
 
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Draconis

Guest
And I don't even want to *think* about what Parallax Wave, Perish, Wash Out, even Ghitu Fire do to this...
So, basically, you'll lose to white, blue, blue/black, blue/white, and if Fires gets a really good draw...
And don't get so fixated on Fires decks dropping Blastoderm off your Wumpus, they're just as likely to drop a Leech, Hydra, Dragon or Chameleon. All of these trade with or just flat-out kill a Wumpus after they get a Fires popped to give +2/+2, or get Waxed, or your Wumpus get's burned. And after boarding they will probably have more burn, and you'll be in serious trouble...
 
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