The Art of Beatdown, Part 3

[Zadok001]

Some of you know what the title of this thread implies. The rest, well, you can stay in the dark for the time being, unless some old denizen of the Dojo cares to shead light on it for ya'll.

Wheee...

Moving on.

Ladies and gentlemen. This thread is here for one purpose, and one purpose only: To discuss the lost art of beatdown decks. A lot of players consider beatdown decks to be exceedingly simple to build and play- Those people have never really played one. The difficulty in effectively designing a beatdown deck goes a lot deeper than that, with such strange complexities as mana curve, creature quality, and spell/creature ratios. What is the ideal number of creatures to play in a Type 2 G/r Fires deck? In Extended 10-Land-Green? In Type 1 Deadguy Red?

I'm creating this thread largely for selfish reasons. I would like to know what, exactly, a perfect mana ratio looks like as a function of the mana curve in a deck. Any ideas? Specifically, Gizmo? This is your calling...

 

[Duel]

Okay, I consider beatdown decks to be my specialty. Without trying, I can assemble mana curves for 10-land green, roshambo, etc. But one deck type has eluded me, I have yet to learn how deadguy red works. the whole theme seems to be "Spells for R" Anyone care to shed some light there?

 

[Duel]

okay, I'm currently in development for 10-land green. My mana curve (If you can call it that in 10LG) looks like this:
1cc:30
2cc:8 (Muscle sliver, wild might)
3cc:8 (Invigorate, Elvish spirit guide)
4cc:4 (vine dryad)

Everyone I play with it says that I need more land than the 10 I have in there. I have 10 land, 4 guides, 3 fydhorns, 1 quirion ranger. that's 18 mana sources. Do I really need more for this deck?

 

[Istanbul]

A little bit more. Pump it up to 12. Remember, 4 of your alternate mana producers only work if you draw a forest in your opening hand, and 4 of them are temporary mana.

 

[Dune Echo]

Okay, in regards to the X-land green decks, listen to Istanbul, he had a lot of really good ideas a on the MTG News boards that I paid attention too and his advice is sound. Also, don't forget about Land Grant.

 

[Zadok001]

10 Land Green, in my opinion, really is quite reliant on Land Grant. It basically pumps the land count to 14, enough to almost always draw a 'land' on the first turn, usually with an alternate mana source as backup. Also, I really wouldn't play Wild Might... I don't know, that card looks _really_ good, but all things considered, I've almost always seen it played as a bad Giant Growth. Perhaps Bounty Of The Hunt would apply here?

 

[Duel]

Never heard of the card. I'll look for it. Bounty of the hunt, eh?

I'm considering putting in winter orb, but is that a little controlish for this deck?

 

[Spiderman]

It's the green Alliance pitch spell; one of the lesser known (that and Scars of a Veteran). Up to three target creatures can get +1/+1 until EOT.

 

[Mordecai]

Winter Orb is not something I've typically seen as a controlling card. It can be...Orb/Icy comes to mind...but it shines best when in a similar role to Tangle Wire: disrupting your opponent so you can smash their head in more effectively.

It is a REALLY good beatdown card.

 

[Duel]

Okay, but here's my problem, all cards in a beatdown deck should be divided into 4 sections:
Beatdown
Helping beatdown
Solutions
Mana

And winter orb is none. Not sure why it would work, then.

 

[Spiderman]

Winter Orb is part of Mana and Solutions; i.e. if your opponent has no or little mana, he can't cast creatures/solutions to get rid of your creatures?

 

[Duel]

I guess it qualifies as solution on the "Ounce of prevention" theory. Question: Is there a comprable card in ANY other beatdown decks? I can't think of one.

 

[Spiderman]

Was Port used in beatdown decks?

Any type of LD in beatdown (I'm thinking specifically red here) like Wasteland/Strip Mine or red LD?

You got me...

 

[Zadok001]

Was Port used in Beatdown decks? Der, YES. It acts as mana denial against any control deck, limiting counters, removal, and blockers, while not really interrupting your own curve, since you need only cast one good threat and win with it.

Here's one for ya'. Type 2 Sligh. There's been some discussion on it in other forums, but I'm curious about the creature mix in the Brawler-esque version. Mine goes like this:

4x Brawler
4x Spur Grappler
2x Kris Mage
3x Arc Mage
4x Chimeric Idol

In essence, this is a Wire/Port/Break deck designed to limit an opponent's mana supply, and win with a fatty of some kind. Unfortunately, the creatures seem to run to the higher bent of casting costs; there's nothing worth playing in 1 or 2 cc slots aside from the Brawlers. Any replacements?

 

[Aku Necromancer]

In most 10-land Green/Suicide Green decks I've played against they all ran a few winter orbs in the main deck and a few in the sideboard. The reason: most creatures and spells in there decks needed only one mana to cast so the winter orb had a bigger impact on his opponent and making it harder for him to deal with a horde of green weenies.

 

[Duel]

I don't think that port is used in extended beatdown at all, and it's used in almost EVERY t2 deck, so that's no indication.

I guess wasteland works, as a metagame card, mostly, against trix. Read "Practical Metagaming" on the dojo, look up the wasteland cycle. That makes sense. It's not the same, though. I'm testing out the orb in the deck. I just hope I don't draw 2...

 

[Gizmo]

Winter Orb is the best beatdown card EVER printed.
Period, full stop, yadda yadda yadda, I am not listening to your counterargument....
It just is.

People overcomplicate why a beatdown deck wins. I dsigned with a certain Mr D.Price for a while, but found that he didn`t truly grasp what beatdown decks were doing. he can play them, fine, but he does so with a general feel for the flow oft he game as opposed to a proper understanding.

This is why beatdown decks win:
It is because they play cards faster than their opponent, then end the game before the opponent can restore card parity.
Simple.
It`s ALL about card advantage.

A Winter Orb is an excellent way of guaranteeing that your opponent will not be able to match your tempo as his spells are now much slower than yours.

 

[Duel]

okay, I see it. Stompy IS card advantage. You have more cards accessible to you than your opponent has, whch counts as card advantage. Winter orb excaggerates that attribute. okay, I can accept that.


Off of winter orb, the first article I posted was on my lack of understanding about the principle behind deadguy red. I can understand some of the early sligh, but it's beyond me why deadguy works as well as it does. Gizmo, you designed with David Price? Then I take it you can explain this "should-be-simple" deck.

 

[Zadok001]

My logic runs that all decks rely on a variety of advantages, even Stampy/Sligh/Whatever. Allow me an example. Tempest-Mirage Sligh playing against a Rec/Sur deck (classic example, I remember it from another article).

Sligh (let's call him Dave) opens with a Mountain and a Jackal Pup, to his opponent's (say, Brian) Forest. On the next turn, Dave attacks for 2, and Brian takes it.

18/20

Dave plays down a second Mountain, and a Mogg Fanatic, as well as a Cursed Scroll. Brian's turn consists of a Wall of Blossoms, drawing him a card. Dave takes his turn, attacking with the two creatures. Brian blocks the Pup, taking 1 (17/20). Dave Shocks the Walls to finish it off, and ends his turn.

Brian plays a Spike Feeder.

Let's analyze the game at this point, shall we? (6th edition rules, here.) Brian has in play a 2/2 creature that can give him 4 life and the cost of it. He has played 4 cards (in essence, since the Wall drew him a card). Dave, on the other hand, has played 5 cards (Shock, Pup, Fanatic, Mountain, Mountain) out of his hand, and didn't draw on his first turn. As a result, Dave is down two cards from this point.

Furthermore, Brian's one remaining card (assuming no more burn) neutralizes the Pup, deals two damage to Dave, and returns Brian to 20 (one damage from the Fanatic). That leaves the game at 20/18 in favor of Brian, to Dave's one Cursed Scroll and one Mogg Maniac. As the game progresses, Brian's cards become progressively stronger, since his deck is designed to take advanatage of the mid to late game situations it reaches, while using early cards (like the Wall and the Spike) to gain control and stay alive long enough to establish that late-game position. Thus, Brian's deck carefully positioned itself for time advantage, and card advantage (the Wall against the Shock/Pup) at the same time. Likewise, the Sligh deck tried to focus on card economy (Shock the Wall, or have it permanently shut down a Pup?), and time advantage through the quick creatures.

Needless to say, that game is far from over. But Brian is in a favorable position, while Dave is slightly screwed, at least until he can play down more threats.

Thoughts?

 

[Apollo]

You want thoughts? Well, you summed it up pretty much right there. If you are playing Sligh, and you see a Wall of Blossoms and a Peaches in the first three turns, well, you aren't doing too well. He's not out of it, of course; a Ball Lightning, or some troubles drawing the Survival for the Rec/Sur deck, might give him the game. However, he's in a pretty bad situation.

As for why Deadguy works, it's wins when it's just too fast. It comes out so fast, it kills the opponent quickly and makes all of the opponent's higher cost spells useless because they'll never get them out in time (card advantage). Your opponent basically becomes reactive, costing himself even more card advantage because he has to throw cards in the way of your threats.

Whoever can play the most cards will usually win. And most of the time, Deadguy plays a lot more cards than the opponent.

Was that what you were looking for?