A NON cynical take on Invasion

[Cateran Emperor]

This is LONG. You have been warned

IMHO, Invasion is vastly the best set since the fantastic Tempest. It's a little above Masques, and massively ahead of Saga (ie. the set which made almost everyone forget that you are playing with ANOTHER PLAYER) But I digress...

I'll do the card highlights and analyze them in the system I always use.

The set's coolest beatdown creature:

KAVU TITAN
Rare
1G
Creature - Kavu
Kicker 2G
Kicker = +3/+3 and Trample
2/2

Mana Curve Efficiency = Positive
2/2 base = 2G
Green Creature = -1
Kicker = +1
Kicker result = +3G
--------------------------
Normal CC WOULD be: 5GG

Artwork = Excellent
Name = Excellent
Foil = Incredible
Power: Draft ***** Constructed ***** Multiplayer ****

Comments:
Damn is this guy COOL. There's nothing NOT cool about him. This is a guy you can love whether you play tournaments, multiplayers, or just collect. Undercosted, FANTASTICALLY balanced Kicker cost, this is what the rest of the Kicker guys should be modeled on. All hail KAVUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU TIIIIIIITAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!

The Legend I'm most likely to use his name as an alias:

MOLIMO, MARO-SORCERER
Rare
4GGG
Creature - Legend
Trample
Molimo has P/T each equal to the number of lands you control.
*/*

Mana Curve Efficiency = Neutral
DB base 7
Green Creature -1
Trample + G
GG -3
--------------------------
Normal CC WOULD be 4GGG

Artwork = Incredible
Name = Excellent
Foil = Incredible
Power: Draft ***** Constructed **** Multiplayer *****

Comments:
This fellow is BROKEN in draft. He's nigh invulnerable with his trampling fun. In constructed he only has to worry about Armageddon or targeted removal. He's freakin' huge late game, and compares well to his pal Multani. Multani is for a fast game, Molimo is for a slow game. They're both well suited to their environment. Molimo just trades untragetability with trample (not a bad trade in the new environment)

The weenie of the set:

LLANOWAR ELITE
Common
G
Creature - Elf
Kicker 8
Kicker = +5/+5
Trample
1/1

Mana Curve Efficiency: Positive
1/1 Base 1G
Green Creature -1
Trample +1
Kicker +1
Kicker Effect +G
------------------------
Normal CC WOULD be 2GG

Artwork = Fair
Name = Excellent
Foil = Very Cool
Power = Draft **** Constructed ***** Multiplayer ***

Comments:
Don't laugh at a 1/1 trample. Green has a tendency to make things...BIGGER...

Anyways, there'll be more of this later if anyone cares

 

[Darsh]

Are you going to do this only on creatures or are you going to include spells too? I would love to hear your rating of do or die(must get 4!).

 

[Riva Iron-Grip]

man i haven't even seen any invasion cards. my stupid card shop here in salinas hasn't gotten them i dont think. it sucks. they only cary scryes anyways, so i cant get the free card/booster pack out of topdeck, and duelist, and stuff like that. it sucks. some ppl on motl already have like 50-75 rares from invasion. pisses me off.

 

[Darsh]

Invasion won't be out until October 2nd or 3rd. I think he gets the pics from StarCityGames.com

 

[Kavu Titan]

Yep, this is still me. I just love the Titan so much I even got a new e-mail Obsessive, yes!

Now for everyone's silliest word:

SKIZZIK
Rare
3R
Creature - Elemental
Kicker R
Kicker = No sac at EoT
Trample, Haste.
Sacrifice Skizzik at EoT
5/3

Mana Curve Efficiency = Positive
3/3 base = 3R
Red Creature = +0
+2/+0 = +1R
Trample = + R
Haste = +1
Kicker = +1
Kicker result = +1
Sac at Eot = -2
-----------------------
Normal CC WOULD be: 5RR

Artwork = Excellent
Name = Hilarious
Foil = Incredible
Power: Draft ***** Constructed ***** Multiplayer ***

Comments:
It's all about the name baby. This guy is the next best Ball Lit in quite a while, b/c he doesn't HAVE to die! Trample on a Red creature is quite handy (!@#$ pro Red) and, well, the NAME rocks!

POUNCING KAVU
Common
1R
Creature - Kavu
Kicker 2R
Kicker = +2/+2 and Haste
First strike
1/1

Mana Curve Efficiency = Positive
1/1 Base 1R
Red Creature +0
Kicker +1
Kicker Effect +2R
First Strike + R
Haste +1
------------------------
Normal CC WOULD Be 5RRR

Artwork = Excellent
Name = Excellent
Foil = Very Cool
Power: Draft ***** Constructed *** Multiplayer ****

Comments:
This is a cool common, one of the better Red creatures in a great creature set. The normal CC is a bit of a problem with the Kicker creatures I think, so I may have to do 2 on each of the Kicker spells.

Darsh, I'll do spells soon enough. Since you insist, I'll do D or D tomorrow Any other particular requests to be analyzed?

 

[Darsh]

Thanks CE/KT, no more requests from me you already got the best creatures.

 

[plaguelord2000]

you havent said anything about bue yet. there sapose to be great. oh will you talk about the leginday dragons

 

[Darsh]

I read that blue was supposed to be terrible, and just give him some time to work on this.

 

[Thrash Golem]

riva.. these people all have invasion cuz of the prerelease. invasion won't be for retail sale until oct. 2nd

 

[Gizmo]

Gosh, what a stupid way to rate cards, especially cards with kicker. Surely the only way to evaluate Kicker cards is to give them a dual evaluation and decide if they are undercosted with Kicker or without Kicker, rather than treat them as the same spell. Isn`t this the same system that decided Morphling should have cost about UUUUUUUU1 or something?

eg.

Kavu Titan is either:
A) 2/2 for G1. It`s a Grizzly bear, not bad but not great - you can do worse than play with Grizzlies. So it`s a playable 2cc monster although there are better choices at 2cc (Boa, Snapper Llanowar Knight etc immediately spring to mind). It`s a BAD 2cc monster, given what you could be getting for 2cc in green.
B) 5/5 Trample for GG4. This is a pretty good cost, not as good as most big Green monsters (most obvious comparison is to stuff like Carnassid) but certainly competitive with most 6cc stuff although slightly worse than other options.

So Kavu Titan is a card that is okay at both cc but not as good as a dedicated 2cc or 6cc mosnter. You probably play it because it is flexible, but only in a deck that is expecting to have 6cc swilling about at some point. If you weren`t then you would use a good 2cc monster instead because they are So much better.

5-Star Rating
Constructed without Kicker: **
Constructed with Kicker: ***
Limited: ****


Llanowar Elite
A) A 1/1 Trample for 1cc. That`s bad. The trample can be ignored befcause it`s a 1/1. Yes, I know you can boost it but that`s such a minor effect that it shouldn`t add to the cc of the card. So it`s a Mon`s Goblin Raiders.
BTW, where do you get a 1/1 has a 2cc base from? That`s bollocks, every colour has 1/1s for 1cc and most have some cool ability - ever heard of Apprentices?
B) A 4/4 Trample for 9cc. That`s EVEN WORSE! At least you get a 4/4, but it`s still terrible - the Titan gives you a 5/5 for 3 less mana!

So the Elite is either bad, or terrible. I can think of no reason to play this card in a constructed deck because even if you wanted a card that was flexible you would go with the Titan instead.

5-Star Rating
Constructed without Kicker: *
Constructed with Kicker: *
Limited: ** (you are more likely to have 9 mana and nothing to do with it)


Skizzik
A) 5/3 Trample, Haste, One-off for R3. That`s really competitive with other comparable cards such as Viashino Cuthroat. If you wanted something like this which wasn`t going to stick around then you would be happy to pay 4cc for this effect.
B) 5/3 Trample, Haste for RR3. That`s AMAZING! It costs the same as the Irregulars but is +1/+1 and that`s quite big.

Skizzik is downright great, mostly because the Kicker is only R so it doesn`t throw Skizzik out of it`s intended role. Often you will simply draw Skizzik a turn later, or be burning a creature, on the fourth turn and so you suddenly get to pay the Kicker the very next turn and get it permanently. This is a card where the fact it has Kicker actually SHOULD be added to casting cost, but it hasn`t. IMHO it should have a base cost of R4 as it is undercosted as it is.

5-Star Rating
Constructed without Kicker: ****
Constructed with Kicker: ****
Limited: *** (less likely to be in a deck focused enough to take full advantage, not as good as a 4/4 version would be)


Poncing Kavu
A) 1/1 First Strike for R1. That`s bad. You don`t want anything that`s 1/1 for 2cc unless it has an awesome ability. Poncing Kavu has a poor ability.
B) 3/3 First Strike, Haste for RR3. That`s more competitive and probably fairly costed as it is only one more than the Goblin guy from Destiny who was 2/2 for 4cc. Fair cost, you`d happily pay 5cc for this guy.

So you`ve got a card that you would NEVER EVER cast as a 2cc guy, but you`re happy to cast as a 5cc guy. The only reason you would play this card is because red is currently so screwed it has no better creatures at 5cc.

5-Star Rating
Constructed without Kicker: *
Constructed with Kicker: ***
Limited: **** (a 3/3 First Strike for RR3 is good in draft)

--------------------

Can you seriously expect anybody to believe that your system is valid if it says that a 3/3 First Strike, Haste guy should cost RRR5? Or a 1/1 Trample should cost GG2?

What would you say for Scorching Lava?
R1
2 damage base cost: R1
Kicker: +1
Kicker result: +1
---------
Total cost: R3?

The system is meaningless.

 

[Purple_jester]

First of all, Gizmo? Uh, the full kicker of Kavu Titan is 3GG, or 5cc. So, it's a 5/5 trample for 5. Not bad, huh? I thought that the regular cost for a 5/5 trample should be 6cc. And the Llanowar Elite is a 6/6 trample for 9cc. But it still sucks. And this system is somewhat odd, especially if it says morphling should cost that much. I would think that the Morphling should have cost around 6cc. Masticore, too.

Second, I agree with the good ratings of Kavu Titan and Skizzik. Especially Skizzik. Now that's a creature worthy of being red. It's right up there in the red creature Hall of Fame with Ball Lightning, Mogg Fanatic and Jackal Pup.

However, Gizmo's right in saying that the elf sucks. Really bad. G for a 1/1 trample? Err... no. Don't think so. Unless it's in a Type 2 elf deck, this thing will never see competitive play. It would have been remotely playable if it was a 2/2 Trample for 2cc (GG), with a kicker of 5 or less to give it something between 3 to 4 +1/+1 counters. however, they tried out for a 1/1 weenie instead. What's it supposed to trample? Kobolds? 0/1 Thrull tokens?

The Pouncing Kavu isn't too good either, I'm afraid. You want the kavu to be more playable? It should have been a 2/1 first strike for R1. Now that's pretty good. Then, for the R2 kicker, it should have gotten Haste and +1/+2 to make it a 3/3 Haste, First Strike. That would have made the Pouncing Kavu a good creature at it's base cost, with a lovely bonus if you can afford it at a higher cost.

Sigh. A lot of the cards could have used a big dose of creativity. Oh, well.

 

[Gizmo]

My bad, I screwed up on Kicker.
Still, the elf is not great and the Kavu Titan simply turns into a card that you would NEVER ever cast at 2cc because it gets so much better for 5cc. As a 5/5 Trample for 5cc I`d consider awarding it **** with the Kicker.

I agree with you about Kicker, it`s such a wasted opportunity.

 

[Bladefall]

Invasion, IMO, is going to be a great set, I think it lacks speed though, mainly for stompy. I'm really looking forward to building my Red Burn deck.

 

[Kavu Titan]

No offense intended Giz, but learn to pay attention before reading something as long as this, as I stated in my last post that the system doesn't work on creatures with kicker and I would redo them

Anyway, I'll quickly revise them with what little time I have (yet more freakin' papers to write)

Kavu Titan: I stand by the initial rating. The kicker is added on for no base CC adjustment, and Grizzly Bears aren't that bad of a creature when you only have 2 lands out and need SOMETHING. Yes, he's infinitely better with the kicker, but he's at least a chump blocker if you don't HAVE the 5 mana. That's what kicker is intended to do.

Quick note on kicker; I do have a better view of the kicker cards in this set than you obviously do, but I also agree that they could have made the mechanic much more interesting. Planeshift should be able to improve I'd hope (imagine having Kicker-Pay 3 life or Kicker-Sacrifice a land and so on like all the different buyback costs were)

Anyway, Skizzik I obviously agree with you on, best red creature in the set. No elaboration needed.

Llanowar Elite: Despite a 1/1 trample seeming absurd, you sem to keep forgetting that Rancor is GONE so anything with built in trample is gonna be good for whatever aggressive green decks show up. Also, Kicker AND Trample don't affect it's CC.

Pouncing Kavu: 1R for a 2/1 first strike is incredibly under the mana curve for anyone, even White, whose "free"/+ 1 ability is FS. If you haven't seen me refer to the "free abilities", each color has one that eitehr has no effect on the mana cost or increases it by 1 rather than a colored mana and so on. Each color has/had a 1 or 2 Mana 0/1 or 1/1 creature with it. They roughly are:

White - First Strike (Tundra Wolves)
Red - Haste (Raging Goblin)
Blue - Flying (Flying Men)
Black - Regeneration (Will o'the Wisp)
Green - Trample (Llanowar Elite, they finally finished the cycle)

Obviously things like Flying Men just abused this, so things had to change around a bit to accompany them. There are also larger versions of them with +1/+1 and cost 3 mana usually, but the cycle jsut keeps going up, so this is pointless. This is just how I see it, so feel free to ignore or disbelieve it if you want.

Back on topic, Red is on par with 2 mana for a 1/1 FS, which you won't notice if you came in during Urza Block as the mana curve for creatures was completely ignored (Masticore is only 4 mana??? The heck???) But still...

Anyhoo PJ, this is merely from a casula perspective, I honestly don't give a damn if they ever see constructed play on some PTQ or not. The included ratings are just my take on them were I to go to a small, fun tourney.

 

[Gizmo]

"1R for a 2/1 first strike is incredibly under the mana curve for anyone, even White, whose "free"/+ 1 ability is FS"

Youthful Knight, anybody?

"Back on topic, Red is on par with 2 mana for a 1/1 FS, which you won't notice if you came in during Urza Block as the mana curve for creatures was completely ignored (Masticore is only 4 mana??? The heck???) But still..."

You would NEVER pay 2cc for a 1/1 First Strike, because a FS monster with 1 power is crap. First Strike only becomes meaningful at 2 power. I think your system is entirely arbitrary because it does not take into account how abilities interact with each other or the creature which carries them, and besides I think most abilities would improve a card only by fractions of a casting cost, but your system can only deal in integers.
eg.
At 1/1 Trample is crap, but it gets prgressively better as the creature gets larger. But I don`t think Trample would ever actually add to the cost of a card because by the time the creature is large enough (6/6, say) then the natural trend for large creatures to be undercosted kicks in to negate the Trample.

"Back on topic, Red is on par with 2 mana for a 1/1 FS, which you won't notice if you came in during Urza Block as the mana curve for creatures was completely ignored (Masticore is only 4 mana??? The heck???) But still..."

I came in during Unlimited.
Juzam Djinn only 4 mana???
Serendib Efreet???
Hypnotice Spectre???

 

[Cateran Emperor]

1R for a 1/1 FS
Don't forget that this guy has kicker added on, which seems to be about the set's average for the base CC increase on them. I will concede that I forgot about Youthful Knight (what set is that in anyway?)

Yes, the system IS arbitrary, I'm merely taking a brief look at the cards. 1/1 FS is not crap, particularly if other 1 toughness creatures are on the board. This particular idea (1/1 FS) is geared more towards limited though, where any first strike is good, regardless of if the creature is 2 mana for a 1/1. It's not great, but it is SOMETHING. The extra mana is for the kicker, which can make the kavu a far more useful creature, where it's first strike, as you say, "matters only if it's power is 2 or more". Well, it now has a power of 3, so the first strike tacked on makes this a fairly balanced mana requirement.

Now for the idea of Trample, I'd completely disagree because we are talking about GREEN. A Blue 1/1 Trample is garbage. So would it be for the most part in White or Black. In red you have firebreathing type things to make a sort of quasi-Ball Lightning. But in GREEN, you have such things as Giant Growth, Wild Might, Invigorate, et al. to make it a BIGGER than 1/1 Trample. Green has no more Rancor, so no more giving out trampling to your guys anymore. Either use Tiger Claws (which doesn't come back and is rather expensive) or I believe there's a gold creature enchant in Invasion which gives something and Trample, but still doesn't return if it goes to the grave. Basically, unless you want your creatures blocked turn after turn by 1 Regenerator/Pro Green 1/1 creature, you're going to have to use something with Trample built in. If you're playing Green, the next smallest Trampler is Pygmy Razorback, which is basically under the same category as the Elite.

As for Juzam and his buds, this is exactly what I'm saying Giz. Creatures wayyyy back in the day to an extent were under the mana curve to an insane degree, yet a greater deal of them helped to DEFINE the mana curve. IA through Tempest at least TRIED to fix it(though Tempest block had some things under the curve such as Dauthi Slayer/Horror and the Soltari Monk/Priest). Urza's block just threw the entire idea of gameplay out the window and said "This isn't a game, we MUST kill them as fast as is possible, so let's make everything warp speed!" Case in point is one you gave us so handily, Mr. Negator. The drawback is absurdly negligible unless A) There's a Masticore on the table B) The opponenet's playing Red or C) There are a LOT of Pro Black critters around. Yet another is the most awful card of all time, the freaking Masticore. Nothing else creature wise really even compares to how broken this evil thing is. Few creatures can stand against it if you've got any mana at all on the board, and you can just sit there for a long time if you're not in 'Core lock building up your reserves. I can just imagine the R&D meeting where tehy thought this up:

New card Guy: Why don't we give colorless damage to every color?

Senior Card guy: Because each color has it's own limitations. Only Red, black, and very very small Blue creatures which we call Tim can have this ability.

New card guy: But that's not fair! What about White? They already have targeted and non creature removal, targeted and non Enchantment removal, targeted and non Artifact removal, 1/1's which can block 9/9 non tramplers completely, the ability to prevent damage and gain life, ways to make every one of their permanents untargetable, ways to make themselves untargetable, greaveyard recursion, library searching, token producers, and a lot of other broken cards in this set already! Let's just take another of Red's trademark abilities and make it everyone's!

Senior Card Guy: NO. Moving on...

[New guys sneaks Masticore in when competent desigener isn't looking]

[End scene]

Now I'm not saying White's the best color, I'm just saying it was annoying enough without the ability to ping creatures with colorless damage.

(Btw, I also started in Unlimited, so I remember those guys quite well. They were much easier to deal with than you're making them out to be )

Anyway, this argument is pointless. I haven't convinced you of anything, and you haven't convinced me of anything, so do you really want to keep this going?

Side note: Don't take this as an attack or anything Giz, but I'm just wondering how you ever got to this place? It doesn't seem like the kind of place you'd go to for Magic discussion (and you keep pointing out that the rest of the boards such as Off topic are stupid, so it must not be them either...) I'm just kinda curious about that.



[Edited by Cateran Emperor on September 29th, 2000 at 07:45 AM]

 

[Spiderman]

Gizmo ever saying the Off-Topic forum and like were "stupid"... he posts there too!

This is getting to be like those posts in General forum... I think Gizmo has the right to respond, especially since you've (CE) included draft and constructed in your ratings, which the tourney scene is a big part of. And certainly just because this is the Casual Players Alliance board doesn't mean a pro can't check in; I check the Dojo regularly (lack of updates nonwithstanding) which we would all agree is a Pro site. I don't know the focus of other major sites (like MTGNews and Yava-whatever).

 

[Gizmo]

Llanowar Elite:
I think the fact that you can boost your 1/1 is largely irrelevant and certainly shouldn`t be considered worth adding on to the cc. For 1cc you can get a 1/1 with a really good ability in any colour, but the Elite only has a fairly poor ability.

Negator was fair, it dropped to, as you say:
A) Masticore
B) Burn
C) Prot: Black

but you forgot

D) Any other creature or creatures

B: Swamp, Ritual, Negator
G: Forest, Jaguar
B: Attack, lose two swamps
G: Forest, River Boa
B: Attack, no-permanent myself.

E) Any other creature removal spell other than Last Breath
F) It was usually only really scary in conjunction with Dark Ritual

Masticore was fair, the discard restriction and mana intensiveness of it`s abilities were a severe drawback. It might be good, it maybe even should have been 3/3, but it was totally fair and we were always glad to be playing against them because they were a really good way for our opponents to lose the game. They are a very hard card to use properly and only a modicum of preparation is necessary to sidestep them. They were only really good in blue deck, which could protect them, and then the fact it was a Masticore was irrelevent as the blue deck did exactly the same thing when it was Nev`s Disk or Tradewind Rider that it protected to win. In those games it was the deck that won, not the card.

And, IMHO, White has been the worst colour in Magic since, well, since they banned Balance. Although Green gave it a run for it`s money as the worst colour for a while there (thru Fempires and IA/AL) White was consistently worse from then on. Apart from a few undercosted 2/2s White has only ever had four good spells - Swords, Disenchant, Wrath, and Armageddon. Occasionally it gets something good, like Replenish, but it`s rare.

I never called Off Topic stupid, although I think a lot of the discussions are pretty dumb and just invite flame wars and bad feelings between people. As for why I`m here - I`m here to help people out with their decks and with Magic overall. I don`t really get much out of the CPA for myself because I`m arrogant enough to think I don`t need help, but I like to feel I can help people to become better players or designers by sharing my knowledge.
Besides I think I give the CPA a different dimension as usually I`m able to provide a new perspective on discussions. It just wouldn`t do to have everybody agree all the time.

Sorry for trying to convince you that the cards you like are bad. I promise to let you play with bad cards in the future.

 

[Duel]

Invasion is a funny set. The thing is, it provides the most versatile set of cards I HAVE EVER SEEN. And I've been playing since right before Ice Age.
Not only do the kicker cards give you tweo cards for one (I'm of the opinion that this ability is underrated), but they ARE printing split cards and BETTER VERSIONS OF THE GUILDMAGI. The Apprentices and Master WILL see play.
Kavu Titan is either 1G for a 2/2 (Not bad by anyone's standards) or 3GG for a 5/5! Both great, plus it isn't useless late game. The thing is, I think fast, developemental decks will dominate, using kicker for midgame support.

 

[Purple_jester]

Anyway, let me just say that I'm not analyzing these cards from a tournament or professional point of view. God knows I can count the number of sanctioned tournaments I've attended on one hand. I'm a casual player at heart, who sometimes participates in the occasional prerelease, arena league or local tourney.

That being out of the way, I've done some testing on the Llanowar Elite. In a fast elf deck (strictly new Type 2), with Seals of Growth, Giant Growths and especially Wild Mights, the elites become very dangerous, provided they come out early. A second turn attacking 6/6 trampler is a frightening thing. So to vindicate what CE said, yes, the Elite CAn be dangerous in the right kind of deck. I limited myself to the cards legal in the new Standard, and the deck was fun to use. However, if I were to use any of the cards from any set, the Llanowar Elite is overshadowed by a single card: Elvish Herder.

You are right in saying that without Rancor, we're forced to use whatever we have. The next best green enchantment appears to be Treetop Bracers. Unfortunately, Treetop Bracers on a Llanowar Elite generaly negates the trampling advantage.

Regarding Masticore... You have to look at it on how difficult it was to kill. Unless you're black (the only color which can take it easy when this thing's around), red has only Pillage to save it. Otherwise, you'd better hope that your opponent didn't have regeneration mana available and that you had something like an Orangutan or Disenchant ready. Now, a 4/4 for 4 is bad enough without having those abilities. Combine it with the Urza Block Mana Engine (y'know, the series of artifacts that runs the Tinker and Wildfire decks) and the Masticore just gets silly. However, yes, you do have to build around it to get full advantage. But nevertheless, it is very hard to deal with once it hits the table. So I will have to say that it should have been a 3/3 for that much mana, which would still have been a good level of power/toughness.

On white, I'm sure you'll agree with me that White is still probably one of the best supplementary colors you can have, if only for the value of those 4 cards, plus Balance (I thought it was only restricted). And besides, Replenish and Rebels are some of the strongest decks around, so white isn't lacking in good decks, is it?

Of course, if I wanted a good supplementary color, I would personally pick green.