Challenger Decks: Spidey (Second Sun Control) vs Oversoul (Hazoret Aggro)

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Clearly you know about this and have done some research, but frankly, what you said pretty much corroborates what I said, in that you may have thought you were "correct" and in the right of its usage but what I read it as was very much different.

their [Fixed idiom] purpose can depend on context.
Exactly.

Gloria Steinham example
This is probably the closest to what I interpreted/read your use of "used to" to mean, in that the rules used to work that way, stopped at some point/rules edition update, and started up again in a later point/rules edition update.

Dan Rickles example
Not part of our immediate discussion, but (again) I have a different interpretation of it. Not knowing his routine/performance, but based on that quote, it sounds like he initially had a routine that didn't involve making fun of audience members and any such making fun was "ad libbed" or thought of on the spot/not prepared (being reactive). But he probably found it "worked" for him and started preparing more to include such making fun in his routine (being proactive).

Anyway, like you being annoyed about being corrected on what you think is right, I'm similarly irked when it's pointed out to me that what I said/wrote meant something else than what I intended and thought was pretty clear. But I'm glad we can have a pretty calm discussion about that kind of thing 0verall.
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Clearly you know about this and have done some research, but frankly, what you said pretty much corroborates what I said, in that you may have thought you were "correct" and in the right of its usage but what I read it as was very much different.
And hey, that's food for thought, I suppose. I thought it was clear, but I was the one who wrote it and I knew what I was thinking. Can't expect you to read my mind! :eek:

This is probably the closest to what I interpreted/read your use of "used to" to mean, in that the rules used to work that way, stopped at some point/rules edition update, and started up again in a later point/rules edition update.
Huh. Yeah, that is strange to me. Like, in my made-up example of the town with the library (in truth I did live in a town with a library on 2nd Avenue, but I know for a fact that that library is still there). It was built in 1991 and it's been there the whole time. Anyway, I'd think that there wouldn't be any confusion in my phrase "used to" there and that my friend would not assume that I must know about this library having been torn down, just from the full context of my sentence. But it's pretty similar to the statement I made here about the rules, so perhaps I'm mistaken on that point. I know for a fact that I've seen other use the phrase in the same way, but of course that doesn't mean it's unambiguous.

Not part of our immediate discussion, but (again) I have a different interpretation of it. Not knowing his routine/performance, but based on that quote, it sounds like he initially had a routine that didn't involve making fun of audience members and any such making fun was "ad libbed" or thought of on the spot/not prepared (being reactive). But he probably found it "worked" for him and started preparing more to include such making fun in his routine (being proactive).
I mentioned that example because it and the Steinem quote were found on one of the first Google results an on a website that is generally considered authoritative/reliable. But also, I pointed it out because it is an example of someone saying he "used to" do something, but then appending a statement implying that he still does. I agree with your interpretation anyway. I'm not especially knowledgeable on Don Rickles' work, but my understanding of the quote was that he started out making fun of his audience incidentally or off-the-cuff, and that he gradually shifted to making it his shtick, to planning on it. But that's still an unambiguous example of someone using "used to" about something that didn't stop happening. He did not, I think, imply that he had ceased making fun of his audience, that it was a thing he once did but that has since stopped.

I guess I'd say that when most people use the phrase "used to" in talking about things in the past, there's the strong implication that it's just in the past, that it's not happening anymore. But sometimes it's more of a general statement on the past without excluding the present. In my case, I used to read the Comprehensive Rules in full and keep track of all changes to them, reading every update. But I don't anymore. I had some enthusiasm toward striving to understand everything about the rules, wanting to master them. Since then, I've not only forgotten stuff, but also some rules have changed a lot. Sometimes I think I remember how the rules used to apply on something, but I know I'm remembering something I learned many years ago and I can't be sure that my recollection, if accurate, is still the case. That's not meant to say that I know the way the rules applied in such a case did change, even though I say "used to." More often, though, I run into returning players who might remember the 6th Edition rules update, but who weren't around for the 10th Edition rules update. They often ask about that. "I know it used to work this way, but does it still?" Does that make sense?

As an aside, I want to say that I was more than 95% confident that the rules on the steps of combat worked that way and always had, but you had me doubting myself there.

Anyway, like you being annoyed about being corrected on what you think is right, I'm similarly irked when it's pointed out to me that what I said/wrote meant something else than what I intended and thought was pretty clear. But I'm glad we can have a pretty calm discussion about that kind of thing 0verall.
I can understand why that would be frustrating. I was going to say, "But doesn't it seem like a problem to be saying 'on your Declare Attack' when that's extremely similar to 'Declare Attackers Step'?" But then I looked back and realized you'd said this...

Well, I cast on your Declare Attack (Phase - sorry if that wasn't clear - not Declare Attackers). So it would just be the Firebrand who is actually present for the Declare Attackers.
So maybe you actually agreed on that point and I missed it? I should have asked what you meant by "Phase" in that statement because I reread it and I'm still not sure... :confused:

Anyway, I want to emphasize that I'm not trying to pick a bone about game terminology or trying to be a rules lawyer or whatever. We are pretty informal here and I like it. I genuinely thought that when you said "on your Declare Attack" that you meant in the Declare Attacker Step, and then when you followed it up indicating something else, that I was missing some mysterious rules interaction or concept. So I was thrown off.
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Done.

Spidey: 8
Hand: 3
Library: 49
Battlefield:

(U,U) Island x2
(U,U) Plains x2
(U) Field of Ruin (T: Add C to my mana pool.; 2, T, Sac ~: Destroy target nonbasic land that Oversoul controls. Each player searches his library for a basic land card, puts it onto the battlefield, then shuffles his library)

Cast Out (When ~ etb, exile target nonland permanent an opponent controls until~ leaves the battlefield.) *exiling Kari Zev, Skyship Raider*

Graveyard: Opt, Supreme Will
Exile:
=======================================================================================
Oversoul: 20
Hand: 3
Library: 48
Battlefield:

(U,U,U) Mountain x3
(U,U) Sunscorched Desert (When ~ etb, it deals 1 damage to target player. T: adds C to my mana pool.)

(T) Fanatical Firebrand (1/1; Haste. T, sac ~: it deals 1 damage to target creature or player).
(T) Kari Zev, Skyship Raider (1/3; First strike, Menace. Whenever ~ attacks, create a 2/1 red Monkey creature token named Ragavan that's tapped and attacking. Exile that token at the end of combat.)

Graveyard: Ahn-Crop Crasher
Exile: Kari Zev, Skyship Raider *Cast Out*
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Doh! After all that, I realized that "Phase" must have been referring to "in the Combat Phase, but before Declare Attackers" i.e. the Beginning of Combat Step. I totally misunderstood that at the time and only came to the conclusion just now.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
I genuinely thought that when you said "on your Declare Attack" that you meant in the Declare Attacker Step, and then when you followed it up indicating something else, that I was missing some mysterious rules interaction or concept.
I honestly thought we've done/said this kind of thing before, but maybe it was with my Mindmaster games with Mooseman. At any rate, I thought you'd know what I meant and so I didn't use the exact names (phase vs steps and the exact names within the Combat Phase). Once you questioned it, that's when I went back to the Comp. Rules and explicitly laid it out, being careful to use the exact terms and so if you still didn't get it until you said this
I realized that "Phase" must have been referring to "in the Combat Phase, but before Declare Attackers" i.e. the Beginning of Combat Step.
that's probably where the confusion came in (although I didn't really know because I thought it was clear enough :) )
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
At your EOT, I will cast Renewed Faith. Responses?

Spidey: 8
Hand: 2
Library: 49
Battlefield:

(T,U) Island x2
(T,U) Plains x2
(T) Field of Ruin (T: Add C to my mana pool.; 2, T, Sac ~: Destroy target nonbasic land that Oversoul controls. Each player searches his library for a basic land card, puts it onto the battlefield, then shuffles his library)

Cast Out (When ~ etb, exile target nonland permanent an opponent controls until~ leaves the battlefield.) *exiling Kari Zev, Skyship Raider*

Graveyard: Opt, Supreme Will, Renewed Faith
Exile:
=======================================================================================
Oversoul: 20
Hand: 3
Library: 48
Battlefield:

(U,U,U) Mountain x3
(U,U) Sunscorched Desert (When ~ etb, it deals 1 damage to target player. T: adds C to my mana pool.)

(T) Fanatical Firebrand (1/1; Haste. T, sac ~: it deals 1 damage to target creature or player).
(T) Kari Zev, Skyship Raider (1/3; First strike, Menace. Whenever ~ attacks, create a 2/1 red Monkey creature token named Ragavan that's tapped and attacking. Exile that token at the end of combat.)

Graveyard: Ahn-Crop Crasher
Exile: Kari Zev, Skyship Raider *Cast Out*
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Untap, upkeep, Draw

Done

Spidey: 14
Hand: 3
Library: 48
Battlefield:

(U,U) Island x2
(U,U) Plains x2
(U) Field of Ruin (T: Add C to my mana pool.; 2, T, Sac ~: Destroy target nonbasic land that Oversoul controls. Each player searches his library for a basic land card, puts it onto the battlefield, then shuffles his library)

Cast Out (When ~ etb, exile target nonland permanent an opponent controls until~ leaves the battlefield.) *exiling Kari Zev, Skyship Raider*

Graveyard: Opt, Supreme Will, Renewed Faith
Exile:
=======================================================================================
Oversoul: 20
Hand: 3
Library: 48
Battlefield:

(U,U,U) Mountain x3
(U,U) Sunscorched Desert (When ~ etb, it deals 1 damage to target player. T: adds C to my mana pool.)

(T) Fanatical Firebrand (1/1; Haste. T, sac ~: it deals 1 damage to target creature or player).
(T) Kari Zev, Skyship Raider (1/3; First strike, Menace. Whenever ~ attacks, create a 2/1 red Monkey creature token named Ragavan that's tapped and attacking. Exile that token at the end of combat.)

Graveyard: Ahn-Crop Crasher
Exile: Kari Zev, Skyship Raider *Cast Out*
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Done.

Spidey: 7
Hand: 3
Library: 48
Battlefield:

(U,U) Island x2
(U,U) Plains x2
(U) Field of Ruin (T: Add C to my mana pool.; 2, T, Sac ~: Destroy target nonbasic land that Oversoul controls. Each player searches his library for a basic land card, puts it onto the battlefield, then shuffles his library)

Cast Out (When ~ etb, exile target nonland permanent an opponent controls until~ leaves the battlefield.) *exiling Kari Zev, Skyship Raider*

Graveyard: Opt, Supreme Will, Renewed Faith
Exile:
=======================================================================================
Oversoul: 20
Hand: 2
Library: 47
Battlefield:

(T,U,U,U) Mountain x4
(T,T) Sunscorched Desert (When ~ etb, it deals 1 damage to target player. T: adds C to my mana pool.)

(T) Fanatical Firebrand (1/1; Haste. T, sac ~: it deals 1 damage to target creature or player).
(T) Kari Zev, Skyship Raider (1/3; First strike, Menace. Whenever ~ attacks, create a 2/1 red Monkey creature token named Ragavan that's tapped and attacking. Exile that token at the end of combat.)
(T) Ahn-Crop Crasher (3/2; Haste. I may exert Ahn-Crop Crasher as it attacks. When I do, target creature can't block this turn.)

Graveyard: Ahn-Crop Crasher
Exile: Kari Zev, Skyship Raider *Cast Out*
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Leave both cards on top of my library and draw them.

Still during your EOT, cast Opt. Responses?

Spidey: 7
Hand: 3
Energy Ctrs: 2
Library: 46
Battlefield:

(T,T) Island x2
(T,T) Plains x2
(T) Field of Ruin (T: Add C to my mana pool.; 2, T, Sac ~: Destroy target nonbasic land that Oversoul controls. Each player searches his library for a basic land card, puts it onto the battlefield, then shuffles his library)

Cast Out (When ~ etb, exile target nonland permanent an opponent controls until~ leaves the battlefield.) *exiling Kari Zev, Skyship Raider*

Graveyard: Opt, Supreme Will, Renewed Faith, Glimmer of Genius, Opt
Exile:
=======================================================================================
Oversoul: 20
Hand: 2
Library: 47
Battlefield:

(T,U,U,U) Mountain x4
(T,T) Sunscorched Desert (When ~ etb, it deals 1 damage to target player. T: adds C to my mana pool.)

(T) Fanatical Firebrand (1/1; Haste. T, sac ~: it deals 1 damage to target creature or player).
(T) Kari Zev, Skyship Raider (1/3; First strike, Menace. Whenever ~ attacks, create a 2/1 red Monkey creature token named Ragavan that's tapped and attacking. Exile that token at the end of combat.)
(T) Ahn-Crop Crasher (3/2; Haste. I may exert Ahn-Crop Crasher as it attacks. When I do, target creature can't block this turn.)

Graveyard: Ahn-Crop Crasher
Exile: Kari Zev, Skyship Raider *Cast Out*
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Keep the card on top of my library and draw it.

Untap, upkeep, Draw

Island

Done

Spidey: 7
Hand: 4
Energy Ctrs: 2
Library: 44
Battlefield:

(U,U,U) Island x3
(U,U) Plains x2
(U) Field of Ruin (T: Add C to my mana pool.; 2, T, Sac ~: Destroy target nonbasic land that Oversoul controls. Each player searches his library for a basic land card, puts it onto the battlefield, then shuffles his library)

Cast Out (When ~ etb, exile target nonland permanent an opponent controls until~ leaves the battlefield.) *exiling Kari Zev, Skyship Raider*

Graveyard: Opt, Supreme Will, Renewed Faith, Glimmer of Genius, Opt
Exile:
=======================================================================================
Oversoul: 20
Hand: 2
Library: 47
Battlefield:

(T,U,U,U) Mountain x4
(T,T) Sunscorched Desert (When ~ etb, it deals 1 damage to target player. T: adds C to my mana pool.)

(T) Fanatical Firebrand (1/1; Haste. T, sac ~: it deals 1 damage to target creature or player).
(T) Kari Zev, Skyship Raider (1/3; First strike, Menace. Whenever ~ attacks, create a 2/1 red Monkey creature token named Ragavan that's tapped and attacking. Exile that token at the end of combat.)
(T) Ahn-Crop Crasher (3/2; Haste. I may exert Ahn-Crop Crasher as it attacks. When I do, target creature can't block this turn.)

Graveyard: Ahn-Crop Crasher
Exile: Kari Zev, Skyship Raider *Cast Out*
 
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