Saviors of Kamigawa Preview

[Oversoul]

If you're building a deck that's heavy on the double casting cost, you simply include more of that color or add cards such as the fetch lands to increase your chances of getting that double mana on the second turn, if that's your goal.

And there are no situations where that doesn't work as perfectly as you'd like it to?

What if I'm building a blue and white deck and I think Fork would go well in it, but I don't use many mana sources that can produce red? Maybe I splash a bit of red for Fire/Ice and have some red sideboard cards. Fork simply isn't going to work here. I can't afford to invest in the red mana necessary to play Fork, as it would compromise the rest of my deck. I'm also not going to just add more red cards, because that ruins the deck. Well, now I could just use Twincast, but in the past, the only reasonable solution would be to exclude Fork and find something else to use instead.

Hymn to Tourach has proven itself many times in monoblack decks. It's a very good card, and yet it doesn't see much play in multicolored decks. If that's because multicolored decks don't want to make opponents discard cards, then why do such decks sometimes use Duress or Mind Twist? Hymn to Tourach is simply limited in the same way that Fork and Counterspell are.

Using multiple mana of the same color as a requirement for casting a spell provides a barrier (if it didn't, designers wouldn't bother with it). It's not an insurmountable barrier by any stretch of the imagination. In particular, black cards have sometimes been able to overcome it through Dark Ritual (Necropotence, with a triple black requirement, has seen play in several multicolored decks).

 

[Force of Will Smith]

i think twincast will serve as yet another F.U. card for blue..
opponent casts a crazy spell and you duplicate it... sort of like a rebound but you still get hit... or you can double the effect if it's your own spell...

i think it'll mainly be used for carddrawing... example

Ideas Unbound UU
draw 3 cards. discard 3 at the end of your turn...

in affinity this is ridiculous, and in almost any deck it's good... if it were 1U it would run in a goblin deck... with twincast the spell costs actually make sense

Reach through mists U to draw a card...
Reach through mists +twincast= UUU= draw 2 cards.. very similar to soratami
counsel of soratami+twincast= 2UUU

much like portal's "tidings" the 3UU sorcery to draw 4 cards..


but twincasting ideas unbound is just crazy library manipulation..
UUUU= Draw 6 cards. Discard 6 cards at the end of your turn, assuming you have any in your hand.

I'll have some fun with it.. but it'll never be "hot"

 

[jorael]

Currently a playset Twincast goes for about 35 euro's (and rising) on Ebay here in the Netherlands. Whether the card is that good or not, they're certainly hot...

 

[Killer Joe]

Why aren't we talking about another card if Twincast isn't good or hot? The more I read here the more I'm convinced that Twincast is starting to look like an uncontrolable monster!


Of course, the sky is falling also....

 

[jorael]

Not tournament-worthy cards get hyped too. These cards cost a lot when a new set is released and quickly drop in price after some weeks (e.g. Promise of Power). Talking about a hyped card doesn't make it good. That said, this card is very cool and will probably remain high in demand, even if it isn't tournament constructed worthy.

The other way around: some cards are only rising in price after some time. Tooth and Nail, for example. I bought mine at a webstore for .50 cents each

 

[Force of Will Smith]

yeah they were oink for a long long time.
i traded mine for 3 packs of mirrodin a piece and i was convinced the guy was an idiot...

when in reality they came to be worth more than that

 

[Spiderman]

And there are no situations where that doesn't work as perfectly as you'd like it to?

What if I'm building a blue and white deck and I think Fork would go well in it, but I don't use many mana sources that can produce red? Maybe I splash a bit of red for Fire/Ice and have some red sideboard cards. Fork simply isn't going to work here. I can't afford to invest in the red mana necessary to play Fork, as it would compromise the rest of my deck. I'm also not going to just add more red cards, because that ruins the deck. Well, now I could just use Twincast, but in the past, the only reasonable solution would be to exclude Fork and find something else to use instead.

That's the whole point, if you're building a U/W deck, using Fork is pretty much a mistake in the first place unless you really tinker with the mana base (i.e. use the appropriate dual lands or whatever). There's a reason why everyone doesn't use 5 color decks consistently with the best cards from each color and pretty much why I said

I'm not saying Fork needs to go in every deck

Now, Twincast opens a player's options to another color.

Hymn to Tourach has proven itself many times in monoblack decks. It's a very good card, and yet it doesn't see much play in multicolored decks. If that's because multicolored decks don't want to make opponents discard cards, then why do such decks sometimes use Duress or Mind Twist? Hymn to Tourach is simply limited in the same way that Fork and Counterspell are.

It is a great card and in fact I would include it in a dual color deck with black as one of the colors. I repeat, it's not hard to get double mana of one color by the third turn if you're playing a dual color deck. Duress and Mind Twist are additional complement spells to the discard strategy (or Duress is a good one spell for a control strategy that doesn't focus on discard as the main theme).

 

[Dark_Tira]

This seems to fall into here see how it's SOK related, the new vanguards for the SOK MTGO release are Oni of the Wild Rushes and Sakashima the Imposter.
Oni of the Wild Rushes
+1 Hand
-2 Life
Creatures you control have haste

Sakashima the Impostor
-1 Hand
-1 Life

X: Choose a creature you control. It becomes a copy of target creature w/ converted mana cost equal to X.

 

[Oversoul]

That's the whole point, if you're building a U/W deck, using Fork is pretty much a mistake in the first place unless you really tinker with the mana base (i.e. use the appropriate dual lands or whatever). There's a reason why everyone doesn't use 5 color decks consistently with the best cards from each color and pretty much why I said

But if a U/W deck is splashing in some red cards, Fork at 1R would be an option. Fork at RR would be out of the question. There is definitely a difference. Like I already pointed out, Mana Leak is often used in favor of Counterspell.

It is a great card and in fact I would include it in a dual color deck with black as one of the colors. I repeat, it's not hard to get double mana of one color by the third turn if you're playing a dual color deck. Duress and Mind Twist are additional complement spells to the discard strategy (or Duress is a good one spell for a control strategy that doesn't focus on discard as the main theme).

"That hard" is a relative term. It's harder than one mana of the given color and one generic mana. Maybe you would use it in a dual color deck with black as one of the colors, but I see it almost exclusively in monoblack. I once used it in U/B and with some success. But my point is that it is easier to use in monoblack decks.

 

[Force of Will Smith]

they have new vanguard demon cards??!! are they only online?

 

[Dark_Tira]

Yes, the vanguards I've posted are currently only on the SOK beta server of MTGO.

 

[Spiderman]

But if a U/W deck is splashing in some red cards, Fork at 1R would be an option. Fork at RR would be out of the question. There is definitely a difference. Like I already pointed out, Mana Leak is often used in favor of Counterspell.

Depending on what format you're doing, dual lands are the obvious choice. Later formats might not have access to create a consistent three land availability in which case you deciding to use Fork would be a bad idea to begin with.

Looking back at our exchange, I believe I neglected to clarify my position. I'm coming from the position from a two-colored deck - making a deck with more colors is harder to begin with. So I'll restate: in a two color deck, getting double mana by the third turn is not overly difficult.

"That hard" is a relative term. It's harder than one mana of the given color and one generic mana. Maybe you would use it in a dual color deck with black as one of the colors, but I see it almost exclusively in monoblack. I once used it in U/B and with some success. But my point is that it is easier to use in monoblack decks.

Of course it's easier in a monoblack deck. I'm not arguing that. But it CAN be used in a dual color deck successfully also. At least if you're building a B/x deck, it shouldn't be automatically excluded, which is the impression you're conveying.

 

[Killer Joe]

What deck uses Mana Leak over Counterspell? Well, a standard deck is out of the question. UG Madness uses Circular Logic (for one Blue mana) over Counterspell but that's the only one I'm aware of.....

 

[Oversoul]

Of course it's easier in a monoblack deck. I'm not arguing that. But it CAN be used in a dual color deck successfully also. At least if you're building a B/x deck, it shouldn't be automatically excluded, which is the impression you're conveying.

How am I conveying that it should be automatically excluded? I mentioned that I've used Hymn to Tourach in U/B myself.

Fork has the same problem, but is more situational: it needs another spell to target, and its quality depends on the effect of that spell. As such, Fork gets pushed into the same place as Hymn. That is, it is mostly only used in one-colored decks, although two-colored decks can include it with success. But Fork, being more limited in the variety of decks it is potentially useful in, sees even less play. I've seen it in some monored decks and I might have seen it in a two-color deck, although I don't remember any particular instances of that.

If Fork's effect is still as valuable as it was once considered to be, a blue version should be more widely used, since most decks that could use such an effect run much more blue than red (if they run red at all).

Killer Joe, every multicolored deck with counters in any tournament format I can think of prefers Mana Leak to Counterspell. Many decks do use both, but if they only use one, it tends to be Mana Leak (not very many decks run so few counters that this happens). In Vintage, even monoblue decks might prefer Mana Leak (but use both) because of colorless mana sources.

 

[jorael]

Blue gets played a lot more than red in Vintage, so Twincast is mroe interesting than Fork. So I must admit that a casting cost of double blue is way more better than double red in Vintage.

Time will tell if Twincast is really worth p(l)aying...

 

[Oversoul]

Casually, I do not doubt at all that Twincast is worth playing, since Fork is worth playing. In tournaments though, yeah, time will tell...

 

[Spiderman]

How am I conveying that it should be automatically excluded? I mentioned that I've used Hymn to Tourach in U/B myself.

Statements like

Maybe you would use it in a dual color deck with black as one of the colors, but I see it almost exclusively in monoblack

The words "maybe" and "but" qualify the usage of the Hymn to it being an afterthought rather than seriously be considered in dual colored decks.

Fork has the same problem, but is more situational: it needs another spell to target, and its quality depends on the effect of that spell. As such, Fork gets pushed into the same place as Hymn. That is, it is mostly only used in one-colored decks, although two-colored decks can include it with success. But Fork, being more limited in the variety of decks it is potentially useful in, sees even less play. I've seen it in some monored decks and I might have seen it in a two-color deck, although I don't remember any particular instances of that.

These "problems" you mention with Fork actually work to its favor - you're not going to be using Fork (generally) right away; it's more of a mid or late game card. Which of course increases the chances you're gonna have dual mana of red.

The only reason why I haven't seen it more often is because it went out with Revised which was 10 years ago, which makes it relatively rare.

 

[Oversoul]

The words "maybe" and "but" qualify the usage of the Hymn to it being an afterthought rather than seriously be considered in dual colored decks.

Since when do "maybe" and "but" qualify something as being an afterthought?

And I did italicize the "almost" in that sentence for emphasis. Also, the very next sentence mentions a two-color deck I personally built that used Hymns.

These "problems" you mention with Fork actually work to its favor - you're not going to be using Fork (generally) right away; it's more of a mid or late game card. Which of course increases the chances you're gonna have dual mana of red.

Why "problems"? Do you seriously consider having a stricter mana requirement to cast a spell to be unimportant (or an advantage)? How does a double-red mana cost work in its favor? All I see it do is limit Fork to very red-heavy decks (yeah, despite the dual lands and lotus petals and any number of other mana fixers) where a 1R mana cost would make it quite splashable. That's not in Fork's favor by any stretch of the imagination...

 

[Spiderman]

Since when do "maybe" and "but" qualify something as being an afterthought?

Because they show that thinking to include Hymn is an exception, used rarely, used not often. If Hymn was always being considered for a two-colored deck, the words would be unnecessary.

And I did italicize the "almost" in that sentence for emphasis. Also, the very next sentence mentions a two-color deck I personally built that used Hymns.

Yes, but your whole theme is that in general, not personally, Hymn is not seen in two color decks, whether built by you or anyone else.

Why "problems"? Do you seriously consider having a stricter mana requirement to cast a spell to be unimportant (or an advantage)? How does a double-red mana cost work in its favor? All I see it do is limit Fork to very red-heavy decks (yeah, despite the dual lands and lotus petals and any number of other mana fixers) where a 1R mana cost would make it quite splashable. That's not in Fork's favor by any stretch of the imagination...

Once again, if you're having problems getting dual mana out for a color by the 5th turn consistently, your deck is in serious need of tuning. When I want to use Fork, it's probably going to be by then generally and if I don't have 2 red mana by then, my deck has a bigger problem than trying to use the Fork.

Are you telling me you have problems getting out dual mana of one color by turn 5 or whatever you consider mid-game and seriously consider using Fork?

 

[Oversoul]

Because they show that thinking to include Hymn is an exception, used rarely, used not often. If Hymn was always being considered for a two-colored deck, the words would be unnecessary.

Still nothing about an afterthought. Including Hymn in two-color (with black as one of those colors, of course) decks is an exception. I don't know how "rare" it is. It's certainly much less common than using Hymn in monoblack decks. Nothing in my sentence indicated that Hymn was an afterthought. And you have not explained how my diction gave you such an impression.

Yes, but your whole theme is that in general, not personally, Hymn is not seen in two color decks, whether built by you or anyone else.

I don't have a theme. My contention was that Fork was limited by having a double-red mana cost. I used Hymn as an example of another such card. Of course, I am speaking about the use of such cards in general. There are exceptions, especially when it comes to casual play.

Once again, if you're having problems getting dual mana out for a color by the 5th turn consistently, your deck is in serious need of tuning. When I want to use Fork, it's probably going to be by then generally and if I don't have 2 red mana by then, my deck has a bigger problem than trying to use the Fork.

I haven't used Fork in any decks other than monored ones (I have owned four copies for I forget how long). I don't know why you are trying to bring deck-tuning into this. I'm talking about the limitations of the card. If it can't be used very readily in multicolored decks, then it is made less versatile by that. It's not an issue of how well-tuned anyone's deck is. You seem to consider Fork a midgame or late game card moreso than an early one. That seems to be the case from my experience with the card. But not being able to play it without two red mana doesn't just go away. If I'm Mind Twisted early on and want to Fork it, Fork will need to be available second or third turn, and not fifth. If I'm playing against land destruction, my ability to cough up two red mana may be jeapordized until long after the fifth turn.

Requiring two of the same color of mana is simply more of a burden on any deck (except for one-color decks, and only some of those) than only needing one of the mana to be a specific color. This is not complicated. It is a drawback of Fork (and numerous other cards). Just how much of a drawback it is varies.

Are you telling me you have problems getting out dual mana of one color by turn 5 or whatever you consider mid-game and seriously consider using Fork?

No. Why do you ask?